Jacob's Deception

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EM9642

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#1
#1
I have decided to re-read the entire Bible, because I feel it will help me the most in my journey and is a good goal for the upcoming year. I have gotten to the story about how Rebekah helped Jacob deceive Isaac. I understand that Rebekah knew since before their birth that God would favor Jacob; I just always wondered why she simply did not tell Isaac what God had told her. The whole story. R always leaves me with a very uncomfortable feeling. I know that Esau traded his birthright for soup in Gen. Ch. 25, but I can't help but think that deceiving Issac was just wrong. What are your thoughts?
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#2
Dec 28, 2016
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#2
My thoughts are that we all do sinful things, yet God still shows grace, justice and mercy yet his will is never thwarted as he still accomplishes his plan despite our sinfulness. Glad you are reading through Scripture!
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#3
Jul 18, 2017
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#3
EM9642 said:
...but I can't help but think that deceiving Issac was just wrong.
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Of course it was wrong, and Jacob paid for it by being seriously deceived by Laban. Read on and you will see things balancing out.

At the same time, God already knew that Esau would be a godless person, while Jacob would eventually become a man of faith. So the birthright went to Jacob.
 
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EM9642

Guest
#4
#4
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course it was wrong, and Jacob paid for it by being seriously deceived by Laban. Read on and you will see things balancing out.

At the same time, God already knew that Esau would be a godless person, while Jacob would eventually become a man of faith. So the birthright went to Jacob.
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Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a goddless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#5
#5
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course it was wrong, and Jacob paid for it by being seriously deceived by Laban. Read on and you will see things balancing out.

At the same time, God already knew that Esau would be a godless person, while Jacob would eventually become a man of faith. So the birthright went to Jacob.
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Um, Jacob was prety much just as godless as Esau..
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#6
#6
EM9642 said:
Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a goddless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
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Again, Esau was no more godless that Jacob. He eventually even forgave Jacob and they both embraced.

But yes, We have free will..

But you do make a good question. Is Rebekka’s sin ok because through it she was fulfillingn Gods will?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#7
Jul 31, 2013
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#7
EM9642 said:
I have decided to re-read the entire Bible, because I feel it will help me the most in my journey and is a good goal for the upcoming year. I have gotten to the story about how Rebekah helped Jacob deceive Isaac. I understand that Rebekah knew since before their birth that God would favor Jacob; I just always wondered why she simply did not tell Isaac what God had told her. The whole story. R always leaves me with a very uncomfortable feeling. I know that Esau traded his birthright for soup in Gen. Ch. 25, but I can't help but think that deceiving Issac was just wrong. What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
it's possible that Isaac did know, but himself personally favoring Esau, either ignored what had been foretold, purposefully went against it, thought it wouldn't have anything to do with birthright, or something else.

since you're in this story, here's something not really related to your question but interesting: Hebrew tradition is that Esau had just murdered Nimrod and taken his mantle when he came home and plead with Jacob for food. that he was on the run, Nimrods men chasing him - which would explain why he says he was about to die and was so urgent about eating, because he wasn't planning to stay there but go into hiding until things had more or less blown over.
another tradition is that the mantle Esau took from Nimrod, Nimrod had gotten from Cain, and Cain from his parents - it being one of the garments God made for them in Genesis 3!

this might or might not have truth to it; just a fascinating bit of context if it is so :)
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#8
Dec 15, 2018
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#8
EM9642 said:
I have decided to re-read the entire Bible, because I feel it will help me the most in my journey and is a good goal for the upcoming year. I have gotten to the story about how Rebekah helped Jacob deceive Isaac. I understand that Rebekah knew since before their birth that God would favor Jacob; I just always wondered why she simply did not tell Isaac what God had told her. The whole story. R always leaves me with a very uncomfortable feeling. I know that Esau traded his birthright for soup in Gen. Ch. 25, but I can't help but think that deceiving Issac was just wrong. What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Miscommunication between husband and wife? Yea I dont know why she just didnt tell Isaac. Maybe it was because Esau was Isaacs favourite and Jacob was Rebekahs. When they were in her womb they were fighting, and Jacob was grabbing Esaus heel. Maybe she actually did tell Isaac, but he forgot as they grew up. A mother doesnt forget these things..and if she did remind him it might have caused further conflict seeing Isaac did favour Esau. A father wants to bless his firstborn but the mother wants him to bless the second born. How could she have changed his mind, Rebakah knew it might not turn out ok and asked that any curses fall upon her. Cos Jacob actually wasnt ok with the plan either. The last we hear of rebekah is genesis 27:46 where she says if Jacob marries one of the daughters of Heth her life will be weary. Was it really a trial having twins? Yes, I think for Rebekah it was. My mother had twins and often would say its double trouble. The two boys fighting probably exhausted her.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#9
Dec 28, 2016
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#9
EM9642 said:
Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a goddless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
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The will of man is bound to his sinful nature unless in Christ he is set free; John 8:36.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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#10
Mar 23, 2016
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#10
In Genesis 27:35, Isaac said Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing. At that point, why Isaac could have taken back the blessing from Jacob (imo).

Rather than take the blessing away from Jacob, Isaac let the blessing of Jacob stand.

And please note, God gave mount Seir to Esau for a possession:

Deuteronomy 2:4-5 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore: Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.


So Esau was not without blessing from the Lord.



 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#11
Sep 28, 2015
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#11
EM9642 said:
Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a goddless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
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Esau was a godless person
For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. Hebrews 12:16-17

God hated Esau while he was still in the womb
His APPOiNTED inheritance was to be with the jackals
Malachi 1: 3-4
 
GracethroughfaithinChrist

GracethroughfaithinChrist

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#12
Sep 6, 2014
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#12
Some context for your studies.

Isaac was approx 130 years old when he blessed Jacob.
Jacob was around 70 then.


Perhaps Rebekah was under the impression that Issac was going to die (Genesis 27:2, Genesis 27:10) at the time he was preparing to give the blessing to Esau and worked quickly to do her best to ensure the blessing went to Jacob according to Genesis 25:23, Genesis 25:33 without troubling Isaac about it.

If that was the case, it would seem unlikely that she would want to directly bring about a possible dispute with Isaac on his deathbed.

Btw, Isaac lived some 40+ years after giving the blessing to Jacob.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#13
Mar 23, 2016
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#13
GraceAndTruth said:
God hated Esau while he was still in the womb
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Scripture does not state that "God hated Esau while he was still in the womb".

Scripture tells us that while Esau was still in the womb, God indicated to Rebekah that the elder shall serve the younger.


Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


This truth is reiterated in Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



Scripture tells us that the statement "Esau have I hated" was not made until Malachi:

Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau ...



 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#14
#14
GraceAndTruth said:
Esau was a godless person
For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. Hebrews 12:16-17

God hated Esau while he was still in the womb
His APPOiNTED inheritance was to be with the jackals
Malachi 1: 3-4
Click to expand...
1. Esau found no place for repentance for inheriting his fathers birthright, not salvation.
2. God hated Esau is in reference to God loving the nation of Israel more than he loved the nation of Edom (malichi 1: 3) not a child who was in the wormb
3. God did not chose to save Jacob in the womb, and reject Esau to hell in the womb, He chose to give the blessings of father abraham to Jacob, He chose the nation Of Israel over the Nation of Edom.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#15
Sep 28, 2015
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#15
reneweddaybyday said:
Scripture does not state that "God hated Esau while he was still in the womb".

Scripture tells us that while Esau was still in the womb, God indicated to Rebekah that the elder shall serve the younger.


Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


This truth is reiterated in Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



Scripture tells us that the statement "Esau have I hated" was not made until Malachi:

Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau ...
Click to expand...
Stay in your dreamland
 
G

garee

Banned
#17
Mar 28, 2016
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#17
Jacob name was changed from meaning "the deceiver" to Israel, "one who struggles with God and man and overcomes" ,
 
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reneweddaybyday

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#19
Mar 23, 2016
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#19
GraceAndTruth said:
Malachi 1: 2-3
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Malachi 1:

1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


No mention of "while still in the womb".


And, again, as shown to you previously, what God said while Esau was "still in the womb" was the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23 and Rom 9:12) which for some reason offends you.

There are enough other verses which establish the sovereignty of God without having to make any changes to what is written in Scripture. Stick to those other verses and quit changing Scripture.



 
G

garee

Banned
#20
Mar 28, 2016
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#20
reneweddaybyday said:
Scripture does not state that "God hated Esau while he was still in the womb".

Scripture tells us that while Esau was still in the womb, God indicated to Rebekah that the elder shall serve the younger.


Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


This truth is reiterated in Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



Scripture tells us that the statement "Esau have I hated" was not made until Malachi:

Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau ...
Click to expand...
Quite a few times we find that pattern the second born gets the blessing to helps us to remember our second birth is the eternal.

God had favor on Abel the second born but not Cain . God had favor on the second born Issacs but not Ismael. God had favor on Jacob the second born but not Esau .

Two generations the generation of Adam as in natural man and the generation of Christ the born again generation

God is clear: As born again believers, we are all His favorite sons! Jesus is our Firstfruit (1 Cor 15:20) and we are royal priests, the first-born sons and daughters of the King!
 
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