Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[Budman]

This is where we very much disagree, if you are saved you "will" do good works, but you will do them because it is now your nature to desire to be more like your Father. You deny this?

How many good works "prove" one is saved?

One a day? Five? Ten?

Why are you so against "being" better? Guilt? You don't do anything for the Lord?

I'm certainly not. But if salvation is truly a gift, then one doesn't have to "do" anything to keep it.

 

[Budman]

He did it all why? To keep me the same.

Did you sin before salvation?

Do you still sin now?

How many sins are attributed to you?

For your sake, I hope it's none.

By the way I sin a lot less that in the flesh

How many sins will damn you?

 

[Budman]

It's not about remaining saved or proving you are saved, but James said show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justifying oneself before whom? God or man?

I think the Bible teaches that a person who has truly been born of God will want to do more than "get His ticket to heaven punched". There ate false conversions and true conversions. The false conversions gave a mere intellectual assent and lip service, but they were not born of God. There is a type of false faith that does not lead to conversion.

I see. Then salvation isn't a gift at all, is it?

As far as the Corinthians, we are not saying Christians are faultless. I have my share of faults, as I'm sure we all do. But if we are His Sheep we love Him and follow. If we go astray, He goes after us.

And that's my point. We certainly still have it in us to go astray, to not bear fruit, even to the point of death. But if salvation is based entirely on what Christ did for us, there is nothing left for us to do. If all of our sins are truly forgiven, then what can ever damn us?

Nothing.

 

[Jimbone]

This is where we very much disagree, if you are saved you "will" do good works, but you will do them because it is now your nature to desire to be more like your Father. You deny this? If so why? Jesus has no power? If we are reborn and do nothing, what's the point? I think this is where you are mistaken brother, and I mean that with all love and respect, but if you are saved you WILL change, i.e. do works. Why are you so against "being" better? Guilt? You don't do anything for the Lord?

Also why are you preaching sin? Why focus and defend that, of all things why defend and glorify sin as "just something we do"? Of course we still sin, but we strive to be more like our Father and by rebirth have now been gifted with the ability to do so by His grace, through His Spirit that awakens ours, and reconciles it to His? Where am I wrong here? Are you really preaching "we sin, and can sit idle the rest of our lives." I have a strong feeling this is not what God has done in you, am I wrong?

 

[Budman]

Also why are you preaching sin? Why focus and defend that, of all things why defend and glorify sin as "just something we do"?

Where did I do that?

Of course we still sin, but we strive to be more like our Father and by rebirth have now been gifted with the ability to do so by His grace, through His Spirit that awakens ours, and reconciles it to His?

How many sins are attributed to you?

Are you really preaching "we sin, and can sit idle the rest of our lives." I have a strong feeling this is not what God has done in you, am I wrong?

Yes, we will continue to sin. Daily. And yes, one can use the free will they still possess and do little or no works. We are not saved robots. I simply cannot understand how one can add conditions to a gift. If you add a single "you must do this" to salvation, it becomes a wage earned.

Read 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

 

[Jimbone]

Do you still sin now? Yes but do not brag about, endorse, or glory in it as you are doing now. I am no long a slave to sin. Are you?

How many sins are attributed to you? Christ has gifted me His righteousness by His grace.

For your sake, I hope it's none.



How many sins will damn you? Why are you still looking at it in the flesh? it's not a matter of numbers, or amount, I am in the Spirit now, a whole new man with a whole new nature. I promise those closest to me will testify of Gods power to change men, I would almost bet those around you could too, if you're truly saved, but this is my point, and please try to follow me here, we do not change and "do works" buy our own power, it's ALL Him, so when I say "if you are saved it WILL be evidenced by what you do (your works)", evidenced does in no way mean "as payment", you lump "must and will" together and the difference that 1 word changes everything, it changes the whole meaning, so that was just a fallacy. Stop preaching "your always saved and will always sin. Oh well." That is a false gospel and easily gives people a false assurance. If there is no change, you don't know the true and powerful God that saves men and changes worlds.

 

[Jimbone]

It's not about remaining saved or proving you are saved, but James said show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

I think the Bible teaches that a person who has truly been born of God will want to do more than "get His ticket to heaven punched". There ate false conversions and true conversions. The false conversions gave a mere intellectual assent and lip service, but they were not born of God. There is a type of false faith that does not lead to conversion.

As far as the Corinthians, we are not saying Christians are faultless. I have my share of faults, as I'm sure we all do. But if we are His Sheep we love Him and follow. If we go astray, He goes after us. That is why we keep believing, and we are kept by the power of God through faith, same way we are initially saved.

As far as losing salvation, isn't it BAD enough that not abiding in Him robs us of the fulness of peace and joy, hurts God's heart, robs us of the fulness of intimacy with God that we might otherwise have, hurts our testimony, can cause others to stumble in their faith, loss of reward, shamr etc, , to be motivation enough to abide without fearing loss of salvation


These things we write so that your JOY may be full, that you may have fellowship, that you might know, etc...

Amen brother. I do not understand this whole "Christian defends sin" argument. Are we not even allowed to try to follow righteousness even in the church now? No, No, No, we will always sin!!!! That is just not an argument you'd think a Christian should make. I am NOT a slave of sin, I am a slave of righteousness, that's what I want to preach, how to get more righteous in Christ, not how much I'm still going to sin. Bud can you not see the conflict here?

 

[Budman]

Do you still sin now? Yes but do not brag about, endorse, or glory in it as you are doing now.

Jim, I am not doing that at all.

I am no long a slave to sin.

Do you still sin every day?

How many sins will damn you? Why are you still looking at it in the flesh? it's not a matter of numbers, or amount,

Wrong. If you have a single sin attributed to you, you are lost. The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. If you have a single sin in your account, Jesus isn't coming back to die for it.

I am in the Spirit now, a whole new man with a whole new nature. I promise those closest to me will testify of Gods power to change men, I would almost bet those around you could too, if your truly saved, but this is my point, and please try to follow me here, we do not change and "do works" buy our own power, it's ALL Him, so when I say "if you are saved it WILL be evidenced by what you do (your works)

What good works are you doing now that say, a Mormon cannot do? The faithful Mormon will certainly have "evidence" of a new nature.

Stop preaching "your always saved and will always sin

I won't stop, because it's the truth. We have eternal security, and we will continue to sin until the day we die.

 

[Budman]

I do not understand this whole "Christian defends sin" argument.

I don't "defend" sin. I'm simply stating a reality you cannot deny. You still sin, and you do it daily. Just as I, and everyone else does.

 

[Jimbone]

Jim, I am not doing that at all.
Yes you are, you ARE promoting sin and implying seeking righteousness isn't possible. That's what I get from your arguments here, you are saying "we will always sin", that is endorsing it brother.



Do you still sin every day? How many times do I have to answer this. Let me ask you brother, please answer this. When you were reborn was there any change in you? Anything you did before you no longer do, or anything you didn't do that you now do? What there any change?



Wrong. If you have a single sin attributed to you, you are lost. The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. If you have a single sin in your account, Jesus isn't coming back to die for it.

No You are wrong, and attacked a straw man, the amount has NOTHING to do with it, that was what I said, you just affirmed thins in your comment, 1 sin or a billion, the amount maters not, so I was right.



What good works are you doing now that say, a Mormon cannot do? The faithful Mormon will certainly have "evidence" of a new nature.
Those are works in the flesh, and as must trouble as you seem to be having with this conversation I think you may need to take a serious look at yourself, because every case or argument you're making here seems like an atheistic argument, as if you can't see with spiritual eyes. You whole concept of this seems to be coming from a fleshly worldview.
When where you born again, and what exactly does that mean to you. It's starting to make sense that you have to defend "Christians still sin", as if there is no change, because in you there has been no change. Where you raised Christian?

Also please understand I have no clue if you're saved, or anyone else, I am just pointing out that from my point of view, and the arguments you're making, that you have not been saved, and were just told you are. Then same way I was before my motorcycle wreak. Being saved is KNOWING God, it is a LIFE CHANGING event as it should be, if you know nothing of this then He just sent me to point it out to you, but if you are then please share, I'd truly love to hear it.




I won't stop, because it's the truth. We have eternal security, and we will continue to sin until the day we die.

 

[Jimbone]

I don't "defend" sin. I'm simply stating a reality you cannot deny. You still sin, and you do it daily. Just as I, and everyone else does.

Yes but I'm not online bragging about it, glorifying the fact I will always do so. No I am rebuking the one doing that and proclaiming there is freedom in Christ. Do you deny? Do you deny Jesus brakes the chains of sin? Are you denying we are made all new? Are you denying the death of the old man? Is there a change? You seem to be saying no, am I wrong?

 

[Lanolin]

Is it sins of omission rather than sins of comission. But then God is patient with us, or it would be the moment we believe and are saved we die right that instant and enter heaven. No sanctification process needed.

I think people confused being justified with being sanctified?

 

[Jimbone]

Is it sins of omission rather than sins of comission. But then God is patient with us, or it would be the moment we believe and are saved we die right that instant and enter heaven. No sanctification process needed.

I think people confused being justified with being sanctified?

It has been like this since I was saved, and the biggest thing I've noticed is that most the time both sides are attacking straw men, and the idea that we humans can actually move towards righteousness by His power petrifies some, they just don't get it. That said there was a time I didn't get it either so all we can do is proclaim His truth, pray, and trust Him to lead His sheep home.

 

[Lanolin]

Or is it people deny dying to self, and dont get baptised...? Or dont die daily...or maybe...and I note this is common from people who think God doesnt care if we dont do anything with this precious gift ahe gives us..they simply dont read the next verse - Ephesians 2:10

We are saved us by grace through faith it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone boast For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained for us to walk in them.

When do we walk in them? Right after we have been given the gift! Its like if you given a pair of gospel sandals for christmas and then never wear them?! Dont just wear them for special ocassions or bung them in the closet saying thanks for the sandals, but Im still gonna wear my old shoes.

 

[Jimbone]

Or is it people deny dying to self, and dont get baptised...? Or dont die daily...or maybe...and I note this is common from people who think God doesnt care if we dont do anything with this precious gift ahe gives us..they simply dont read the next verse - Ephesians 2:10

We are saved us by grace through faith it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone boast For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained for us to walk in them.

When do we walk in them? Right after we have been given the gift! Its like if you given a pair of gospel sandals for christmas and then never wear them?! Dont just wear them for special ocassions or bung them in the closet saying thanks for the sandals, but Im still gonna wear my old shoes.

Right and right after the James 2:18 in 19-20 it says even more, lets read

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Hmm. this seems to be exposing a lot in this conversation, in 19 he says "even the demons say "I believe", so there is more than just belief, hmmm, interesting. What does 20 say? ouh-oh this seem to completely decimate the whole "no works only still sin", ridiculous argument. Let me quote it again "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless", wow so we see here that faith without works is useless. How do you spin that Bud? It doesn't get much more clear and backs up everything Lanolin and I are proclaiming. Answer?

 

[Budman]

Yes but I'm not online bragging about it, glorifying the fact I will always do so.

How did you get that from me saying we all sin daily?

Do you deny Jesus brakes the chains of sin?

Jim, do you still sin?

Are you denying the death of the old man?

The Old Man will only perish when our physical bodies do.

If the Old Man is now dead in believers, then we wouldn't sin at all, would we?

 

[Jimbone]

How did you get that from me saying we all sin daily?



Jim, do you still sin?



The Old Man will only perish when our physical bodies do.

If the Old Man is now dead in believers, then we wouldn't sin at all, would we?

Brother I do not think you've been reborn in spirit. If you say "The Old Man will only perish when our physical bodies do", then you are completely ignorant to what being reborn is, brother you do not know him. These are only truths you know in Him, in the Spirit, and you fail by your own words. I am no one, but His word is clear and if you think the old man dying is a future event then you are not in truth and are deceived.

This actually explains a lot, and now I know where your arguments are coming from. A false foundation. Man being reborn is a real life, right here and now, welcome to the kingdom here today, it's amazing!!!, event. You are like so many, like I was for years, but you are deceived about what a Christian is. You do not know. If you are still the "old man", you are not saved. Repent brother, He sent me here today to tell you this. I very rarely even comment anymore, and never to go back and forth. I hate that and feel it's a waste of time, but Jesus is True brother, and we can know Him in real life right now. You have to see your sin, this sin you're defending so much because you still can only see in the flesh, is only going to lead to death man. Repent and see "your way" for the futility it is and put the old man to death.

"If you don't hate mother, father, sister, brother, for My sake, you're not fit to be My disciple." You have to put the flesh to death man, even the most dear things to you, we have to die to self man, it took losing use of my right arm to get to the truth that "my way" only lead to death. I pray it doesn't take that much pain to draw you into truth, but if that's what it takes then I pray you know Him regardless of the cost, I still thank Him for the wreak that broke me now. I know I have audacity to assume these things, but brother if you have not been born spiritually new, a "NEW MAN", then you're not saved. I only say this in love and hope you don't perma block me or anything, because I actually think you're a nice guy and if this wasn't the MOST important thing ever, I wouldn't even bother to type this. I pray you have a great day and you and your family are drawn closer to Him every day regardless if they're saved yet or not, I pray that for the world.

 

[Jimbone]

How did you get that from me saying we all sin daily?



Jim, do you still sin?



The Old Man will only perish when our physical bodies do.

If the Old Man is now dead in believers, then we wouldn't sin at all, would we?

What do you say about James 2:20?
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?"
Does that suggest no works is a possibility for one in Christ? That suggest a weak God to me, a pointless salvation that is, as James put it, useless.

 

[Macabeus]

Amen brother. I do not understand this whole "Christian defends sin" argument. Are we not even allowed to try to follow righteousness even in the church now? No, No, No, we will always sin!!!! That is just not an argument you'd think a Christian should make. I am NOT a slave of sin, I am a slave of righteousness, that's what I want to preach, how to get more righteous in Christ, not how much I'm still going to sin. Bud can you not see the conflict here?

I have to be honest, still sin, but I know that when I sin willfully, it is a choice of the will. I like what R.C Sproul said, "when we sin, it is because our desire for what was tempting is greater than our desire to be obey Christ. Woe!. Such a thought is appalling to me, that I could choose sin over Christ. It is a terrible thing. I want to love Jesus more so I sin less, and I want to sin less because I love Jesus. I need to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Because I want to know Him and the power of His Resurrection. I do not consider myself to have already attained or perfect, but this I do, forgetting the things that are behind, I press forward to the prize of the high calling. And I need God's grace and power EVERY step of the way.

I want to perfect holiness in the fear of the LORD. So help me God...

A saint hungers for holiness. We are already positionally holy, and we strive for practical holiness more and more, for HE is Holy.

 

[Macabeus]

G

Or is it people deny dying to self, and dont get baptised...? Or dont die daily...or maybe...and I note this is common from people who think God doesnt care if we dont do anything with this precious gift ahe gives us..they simply dont read the next verse - Ephesians 2:10

We are saved us by grace through faith it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone boast For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained for us to walk in them.

When do we walk in them? Right after we have been given the gift! Its like if you given a pair of gospel sandals for christmas and then never wear them?! Dont just wear them for special ocassions or bung them in the closet saying thanks for the sandals, but Im still gonna wear my old shoes.

Good post. The Bible says put off the old man and put on the new. The flesh still tries to work corruption in us, the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, but those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with it's affections and lusts

The old man still hollers and tries to revive itself, but it/he is dead in the sense that it it's power over us is taken away. Sin shall not have Dominion over you. We are crucified with Christ, let us mortify the sin in our members, for God sent Jesus in the flesh to condemn sin in the flesh

We just need to reckon these things, receive them by faith, and walk in them by the Grace of God, then the truth that God worked in will work it's way out in our words, thoughts, motives, and actions

God said it, we believe it, and receive it