Not By Works

[VCO]

Could you please quote some of those of the Early church who said all we need is Jesus?
Thanks.

Oh. Please make sure they weren't gnostics...

JOHN:
John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

All who are BORN AGAIN believers, are SAVED, and SANCTIFICATION comes Later and Continues Your WHOLE LIFE.

John 1:29 (ESV)
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

NOT the sins of only those who serve ME, because SALVATION has nothing to do with OBEDIENCE, that is SANCTIFICATION.
The only sin anyone goes to Hell for, is REJECTING CHRIST, because it blasphemes the work of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:3-7 (ESV)
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[Only Born Again Christians are considered by GOD, to be CHRISTIANS, all others are Non-Believers.]
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Every single Genuine Born Again Believer, MUST have an eternally alive Human Spirit, before HE CAN EVEN begin the Christians WALK. That Christian WALK is part of SANCTIFICATION, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. SALVATION IS OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT, verse 6 above makes that abundantly CLEAR, and Learning to Walk like HIM, is a process know as Sanctification. Salvation happens in the MOMENT you first had FAITH, and SANCTIFICATION takes a LIFE TIME.


John 3:16-18 (ESV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have
eternal life. [It is the HUMAN SPIRIT that after it is BORN AGAIN, will have ETERNAL LIFE in it.]
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the WORLD might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

All who are BORN AGAIN believers, are SAVED First, and SANCTIFICATION comes Later, and Continues Your WHOLE LIFE. NOTICE again, it says HE DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, except ONE, rejecting Christ, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is the ONLY SIN anybody goes to HELL FOR.

READ THIS:
1 John 2:2 (NRSV)
2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

That to ME says HE PAID FOR ALL SINS OF THE WORLD, except Rejecting HIM, which is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit's WORK in our HEARTS.

John 3:25-27 (ESV)
25 Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification.
26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.”
27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.

NOTE: There in VERSE 26 is the PROOF that WATER BAPTISM does not SAVE. It is the Holy Spirit who immerses you into the spiritual Body of Christ, that is the Baptism that SAVES, 1 Cor. 12:13. AND IT ALL IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD BEFORE YOU CAN DO ANY DEEDS.

John 3:36 (ESV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Notice it does not say ONLY those who Believe and acts on that BELIEF. WHY? BECAUSE IN JOHN 14:15, HE SAYS WE WILL ACT ON THAT BELIEF, BECAUSE IT IS A GIVEN, AND THE FREE GIFT CAME FROM GOD AT THE BEGINNING OF FAITH.


I can exposit like this throughout the N.T. showing you the errors you have made in interpretation. AS YOU CAN SEE, it would TAKE SEVERAL VERY LENGTHY POSTS, to accomplish that. I CHOSE to Exposit the first three Chapter of JOHN, which should be enough to convert the stones. But some how I think, YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE EXCUSES ON WHY IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT IT SAYS.

 

[TruthTalk]

Hi VCO, hope you are healing well and God continues to bless you.

Great post and you are right, excuses after excuses and more excuses

 

[UnderGrace]

Those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are required to do good works because Jesus is their teacher and Jesus, as did Paul, attested to the fact that we must do good in order to qualify to be inserted into the Kingdom of God.

Perhaps you should ponder this absolute truth of this statement.....

"You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." Jonathan Edwards

 

[Rightlydivided]

Rewarded for our works and deeds........! Called BEMA SEAT for the saved......if you make it to the Great White Throne JUDGEMENT....you are going to be bumming!

Amen!

 

[VCO]

Hi VCO, hope you are healing well and God continues to bless you.

Great post and you are right, excuses after excuses and more excuses

Oh HE is in control of the Healing Process. And I can TRUST HIM. I will admit That I sometimes hope He does not leave me an invalid, but I guess He is in control of that too. Yes a stroke is a scary feeling, but I trust that HIS will be done.

 

[VCO]

Do you know who clement of Rome was?
You should find out.

And I agree with you about being exposed to false gospels,,,, so I'll be leaving here once again.

No offense; but you do know that almost nobody listens to your advise, don't you?

 

[VCO]

Could you please quote some of those of the Early church who said all we need is Jesus?
Thanks.

Oh. Please make sure they weren't gnostics...

MY KING HOW SAVE ME, does not require any help from you.

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity.

Polycarp



No one who is rightly minded turns from true belief to false.

Justin Martyr

 

[TruthTalk]

"Perhaps you should ponder this absolute truth of this statement".....

You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary."Jonathan Edwards

Hi again UnderGrace, this Jonathan Edwards quote bears repeating.

"You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." Jonathan Edwards

 

[dcontroversal]

Did
Paul,
Or James,
Or any of the writers write to us so we could be justified before men?
No.

Fran, why do you continue to deny the context of James?

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH <--JAMES is not GOD....he is a MAN and the FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD can be SEEN BY MEN HOW?

That MEN MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY GOD <--JESUS

You are so missing the mark it is tragic...

THEREFORE we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW <--this is as clear as can be!

 

[Budman]

Fran, why do you continue to deny the context of James?

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH <--JAMES is not GOD....he is a MAN and the FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD can be SEEN BY MEN HOW?

That MEN MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY GOD <--JESUS

You are so missing the mark it is tragic...

THEREFORE we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW <--this is as clear as can be!

So true, my brother!

There is but one condition of eternal salvation, believing in Christ. The moment one believes he has eternal life. Nothing can reverse that, since eternal life is eternal. Therefore, even if a believer fails to persevere or fails to do works, everlasting life remains.

Saving faith is the passive acceptance of God's promise to the believer. Those who who place conditions on eternal salvation such as perseverance or good works, replace grace with human effort, in defiance of Ephesians 2:9 "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Let's say Phil and Bill are both believers. Phil perseveres and goes to heaven, Bill doesn't and goes to hell. This would give Phil grounds for boasting. He could legitimately say that he got to heaven because he persevered in good works.

WHY do those who add works to salvation completely ignore Romans 4:4-5 "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

Those who claim believers will do good works if they are saved, as proof they are truly saved, ignore all of the New Testament calls for justified believers to persevere in good works. Such calls would be unnecessary if obedience was guaranteed! The justified believer would be unable to disobey God.

Ignored also is 1 Corinthians where Paul confronts believers who are still "babes" in Christ FIVE YEARS after their conversion. They weren't producing any good works at all. Their works were all CARNAL and not spiritual. And some believers had already died without ever advancing to spiritual maturity (1 Corinthians 11:30) and yet Paul still referred to them as believers!

Saving faith is the conviction that Jesus is telling the truth when He guarantees, "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24).

Jesus paid the full and complete price for everyone's sins on the cross. There is no price whatsoever left to be paid. - be it baptism, good works, perseverance, etc. There is just a promise to be believed. Once the promise is believed, the free gift is received. - Robert N. Wilkin

 

[AgapeShellArt]

Extinguishshed is still not removal is it?

If the HS is not removed. And still inside you. Are you not still saved?

I believe some people have the Holy Spirit like a flickering candle within them. It's not enough to see or keep them warm.

There is no air because of the clutter and the worries of this world try and put it out. There is no fuel because people don't remember to pray and ear the Manna from heaven daily. Yet the fire remains.

I wonder how many people are willing to do some internal house cleaning on their minds and lives to allow the flickering light to become an all consuming flame?

 

[Rightlydivided]

Perhaps you should ponder this absolute truth of this statement.....

"You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." Jonathan Edwards

This sounds wrong at first, but is so right

 

[GodsGrace101]

Would be a whole lot easier to just submit to the truth Fran and trust Jesus for eternal salvation that cannot be lost nor maintained by what you do or do not do.......it is all reward AFTER the GIFT of irrevocable, eternal life.......

We're not supposed to believe what's easy D,
we're supposed to believe the truth.

I agree with your O.P.
100%

Where we part is when you say that we have to do nothing to MAINTAIN our salvation.
This is wrong.

So what is the truth?
Pontius Pilot asked Jesus....and he was staring right at the truth.

So, I'd say we should listen to what Jesus taught...not what some modern day preachers teach.

Here's what Jesus preached:

Matthew 6:10
Ephesians 5:15-20
Hebrews 10:46
Mathew 7:21

Those who do the will of the Father are the ones who will go to heaven.
To do the will of the Father requires our cooperation.
Jesus went to the cross for us...
WE are required to do something too....The will of God, which is to obey Him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes I know who he was.

"Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."

What is not clear in this passage, is whether he was speaking to being justified before men (like in James) or before God.

If he is stating that works justify us before God he was preaching a false Gospel and obviously was not paying attention to Paul when he taught, or worse yet he was deliberately teaching a false Gospel.

UG,
There's no such thing as being justified before men.
Jesus and the writers of the N.T. wrote to teach us how to be justified before God...not men.

So you know Clement of Rome?
Good. He was taught by Paul himself and also knew Peter.
He died in 99 AD.
I think we should pay some attention to these persons who knew the Apostles personally and whose successors put together the bible.


Saint Clement I, byname Clement Of Rome, Latin Clemens Romanus, (born, Rome?—died 1st century AD, Rome; feast day November 23), first Apostolic Father, pope from 88 to 97, or from 92 to 101, supposed third successor of St. Peter. According to the early Christian writer Tertullian, he was consecrated by Peter. Bishop St. Irenaeus of Lyon lists him as a contemporary of the Apostles and witness of their preaching. Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea dates his pontificate from 92 to 101. His martyrdom is legendary, and he has been hypothetically identified with the Clement mentioned in Phil. 4:3. His attribute is an anchor, to which he was tied and cast into the sea, according to spurious tales.

The authorship of the Letter to the Church of Corinth(I Clement), the most important 1st-century document other than the New Testament, has been traditionally ascribed to him. Still extant, it was written to settle a controversy among the Corinthians against their church leaders and reveals that Clement considered himself empowered to intervene (the first such action known) in another community’s affairs. His Letter achieved almost canonical status and was regarded as Scripture by many 3rd- and 4th-century Christians.

source: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Clement-I

P.S. I don't subscribe to the Papal history....

 

[GodsGrace101]

JOHN:
John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

All who are BORN AGAIN believers, are SAVED, and SANCTIFICATION comes Later and Continues Your WHOLE LIFE.

John 1:29 (ESV)
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

NOT the sins of only those who serve ME, because SALVATION has nothing to do with OBEDIENCE, that is SANCTIFICATION.
The only sin anyone goes to Hell for, is REJECTING CHRIST, because it blasphemes the work of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:3-7 (ESV)
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[Only Born Again Christians are considered by GOD, to be CHRISTIANS, all others are Non-Believers.]
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Every single Genuine Born Again Believer, MUST have an eternally alive Human Spirit, before HE CAN EVEN begin the Christians WALK. That Christian WALK is part of SANCTIFICATION, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. SALVATION IS OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT, verse 6 above makes that abundantly CLEAR, and Learning to Walk like HIM, is a process know as Sanctification. Salvation happens in the MOMENT you first had FAITH, and SANCTIFICATION takes a LIFE TIME.


John 3:16-18 (ESV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have
eternal life. [It is the HUMAN SPIRIT that after it is BORN AGAIN, will have ETERNAL LIFE in it.]
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the WORLD might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

All who are BORN AGAIN believers, are SAVED First, and SANCTIFICATION comes Later, and Continues Your WHOLE LIFE. NOTICE again, it says HE DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, except ONE, rejecting Christ, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is the ONLY SIN anybody goes to HELL FOR.

READ THIS:
1 John 2:2 (NRSV)
2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

That to ME says HE PAID FOR ALL SINS OF THE WORLD, except Rejecting HIM, which is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit's WORK in our HEARTS.

John 3:25-27 (ESV)
25 Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification.
26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.”
27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.

NOTE: There in VERSE 26 is the PROOF that WATER BAPTISM does not SAVE. It is the Holy Spirit who immerses you into the spiritual Body of Christ, that is the Baptism that SAVES, 1 Cor. 12:13. AND IT ALL IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD BEFORE YOU CAN DO ANY DEEDS.

John 3:36 (ESV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Notice it does not say ONLY those who Believe and acts on that BELIEF. WHY? BECAUSE IN JOHN 14:15, HE SAYS WE WILL ACT ON THAT BELIEF, BECAUSE IT IS A GIVEN, AND THE FREE GIFT CAME FROM GOD AT THE BEGINNING OF FAITH.


I can exposit like this throughout the N.T. showing you the errors you have made in interpretation. AS YOU CAN SEE, it would TAKE SEVERAL VERY LENGTHY POSTS, to accomplish that. I CHOSE to Exposit the first three Chapter of JOHN, which should be enough to convert the stones. But some how I think, YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE EXCUSES ON WHY IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT IT SAYS.

Agreed on the above.
No long posts necessary....
What makes you think I don't agree with the above?
You've explained perfectly how one becomes born again.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Perhaps you should ponder this absolute truth of this statement.....

"You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." Jonathan Edwards

Here's the problem UG,
WHO is Jonathan Edwards and does he know more then the Apostolic Fathers?

I've posted many of their sayings and won't post more...

Just two:

St. Clement of Rome (? - 102 A.D.)

First Letter to the Corinthians 33:1-7

What, then shall we do brothers? Shall we slacken from doing good and abandon charity? May the Lord never allow this to happen to us, but let us be diligent to accomplish every good work with earnestness and zeal.

For the Creator and Lord of the universe Himself takes joy in His works. For in His overwhelming might He has set up the heavens, and by His unsearchable wisdom He has put them in order. He has separated the earth from the surrounding water and placed it on the solid foundation of His own will; and He has called into existence the animals that move in it by his own arrangement. Having prepared the seas and the living creatures that are in it, He enclosed them by his own power. Over all, with His holy and pure hands He formed man, the most excellent and greatest in intelligence, with the stamp of His own image.

For God spoke thus: :Let us make man according to our image and likeness; and God made man, male and female He made them.� Having finished all these things, he praised and blessed them and said: �Increase and multiply.� Let us consider that all the saints have been adorned with good works; and the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with good works, rejoiced. Holding to this pattern, then, let us follow out His will without hesitation; let us do the work of justice with all our strength.

1st Letter to the Corinthians 34:1-2

The good laborer receives the bread of his labor with confidence; the lazy and careless one does not look his employer in the face. We must, therefore, be zealous in doing good; for all things are from Him (God).



We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words (ch. 30:3).

 

[Docofmercy]

Working from salvation? Working through sanctification? Working towards hope?

 

[GodsGrace101]

No offense; but you do know that almost nobody listens to your advise, don't you?

How do you know?
You know who's reading along?
You think I'm typing for you and those who believe, incorrectly so, as you do?
Do you believe only YOU get to preach a gospel? And a false one at that?

No VCO...I'm here to set straight anyone reading along who cares to hear the truth.
A person's salvation is at stake here...
Just because some here are afraid of the truth, doesn't mean that everyone reading this is...

 

[GodsGrace101]

MY KING HOW SAVE ME, does not require any help from you.

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity.

Polycarp



No one who is rightly minded turns from true belief to false.

Justin Martyr

The sheep were on His right
The goats were on His left
Mathew 25:33

The sheep were the ones who did as Jesus taught
Mathew 25:38-40

The goats were the ones who did not do as Jesus taught
Mathew 25:45-46


Be a sheep. Do as Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Fran, why do you continue to deny the context of James?

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH <--JAMES is not GOD....he is a MAN and the FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD can be SEEN BY MEN HOW?

That MEN MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY GOD <--JESUS

You are so missing the mark it is tragic...

THEREFORE we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW <--this is as clear as can be!

Because D,
You insist on misunderstanding James and no amount of what I tell you will make any difference.
What could be clearer than this:

James 2:14 A rhetorical question:
"What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"

No. It cannot save him. Jesus confirmed this in Mathew 25:41-43
Jesus is saying what James is saying: Those who work as their faith teaches them will be the sheep and the saved ones. Those who clothe and feed and visit....NOT those who do not.

James 2:15-16
It's necessary for us to clothe and feed the needy --- not just say "God bless you, go in peace".
What good would it do for them? NONE.

James 2:17
"Faith, if it has no works, is dead."

Again, James repeats what Jesus taught in Mathew 25.


James 2:20
"Faith without works is foolish."

James 2:24
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The "faith alone" gospel is the false gospel.

The way you understand James, and how it is being taught these days, is not the way James is writing it.

Show where, exactly, does it say that James is writing about showing our faith to man?
James was with Jesus for years and is interested in getting us to heaven...NOT at all interested in showing our faith to man...

He is not writing anything as you understand it.
If you care to, please exegete verse by verse....
as I have done more than once.