Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,732
6,319
113
P.S.
Since when is mocking a Christ-like behavior?
John 13:35
maybe you guys should not say mockable things like touting confession, without going into any detail about what or how, just throwing it out there, and ignoring the first half of the very sentence he quoted.

i.m sorry,, that is just plain silly and no thinking person is going to take that seriously.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
maybe you guys should not say mockable things like touting confession, without going into any detail about what or how, just throwing it out there, and ignoring the first half of the very sentence he quoted.

i.m sorry,, that is just plain silly and no thinking person is going to take that seriously.
Truly, the Christian faith is not understood well by some here.
Jesus said:
If someone slaps you on the right cheek,,,DO NOT slap him back,
but turn to him the other cheek.

So you justify your action instead of asking forgiveness?
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 6:14-15

Just as you've misunderstood these verses, perhaps you're misunderstanding OTHER verses??
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,044
13,052
113
58
And when will YOU understand that when the N.T. speaks of WORKS, it means the works under the law.
That is taught in Roman Catholicism.

Works do not save us. Faith saves us.
Amen! Yet this statement becomes a contradiction by works-salvationists because what they really mean by it is -- we are saved by "these" works (works of faith/good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Yet you you cannot dissect "works of faith/good works" from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and then teach that we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works. ;)

So after we have faith,,,do works become useless?
Of course not! Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.(y)

Are YOU still under the law?
No, I am under grace, not law. (Romans 6:14)

We do not speak of works under the law.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works are there that a Christian could do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). :unsure:

But, as James so clearly said: Faith without works is dead.
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Dead: Not living, of no value, the same as NOT HAVING FAITH, because it's DEAD.
Exactly! -- "empty profession of faith/dead faith" and NOT authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :)
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
That is taught in Roman Catholicism.

Amen! Yet this statement becomes a contradiction by works-salvationists because what they really mean by it is -- we are saved by "these" works (works of faith/good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Yet you you cannot dissect "works of faith/good works" from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and then teach that we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works. ;)

Of course not! Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.(y)

No, I am under grace, not law. (Romans 6:14)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works are there that a Christian could do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). :unsure:

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Exactly! -- "empty profession of faith/dead faith" and NOT authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :)
Don't have time right now.
Will be back.
BUT, as I've told you other times....you really should forget about the CC. It affects you too much...
I'm speaking about what the BIBLE teaches, not what the CC teaches.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,732
6,319
113
Truly, the Christian faith is not understood well by some here.
Jesus said:
If someone slaps you on the right cheek,,,DO NOT slap him back,
but turn to him the other cheek.

So you justify your action instead of asking forgiveness?
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 6:14-15

Just as you've misunderstood these verses, perhaps you're misunderstanding OTHER verses??
I understand Christian faith just fine.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Jesus also made a whip and drove the money exchangers out of the temple.

it's called balance.

so, instead of addressing what I said, you attack me for saying it. argument tactic 101.

and, one of us got banned and came back under a different name. one of us has not done this.

so, maybe the one who has should not be lecturing the other about integrity...
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
P.S.
Since when is mocking a Christ-like behavior?
John 13:35
Since Elijah.

You can see the sarcasm/mocking for the prophets of Ba'al!

Jesus said:
If someone slaps you on the right cheek,,,DO NOT slap him back,
but turn to him the other cheek.
I only got two cheeks! Third strike yer out! Golden gloves
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,044
13,052
113
58
BUT, as I've told you other times....you really should forget about the CC. It affects you too much...
Oh the irony. :eek:

I'm speaking about what the BIBLE teaches, not what the CC teaches.
I showed you what the BIBLE teaches. I quote scripture throughout my posts. :)
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
P.S.
Since when is mocking a Christ-like behavior?
John 13:35
Did Jesus ever use mockery as a form of communication; mockery, Satire, Irony and Sarcasm are rhetorical tools of communication. You are misapplying John 13:35 "to love one another", does not mean it is wrong to use different forms of communication to make a point, our Savior did. You frequently misapply God's word so that it fits your bias and your false gospel.

Matthew12:1-3; Jesus mocks the Pharisee's for not understanding the scriptures.

Definition: To Mock; n, Derision; insult.
Mocking; Imitating in contempt; mimicking; defeating; deluding.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Did Jesus ever use mockery as a form of communication; mockery, Satire, Irony and Sarcasm are rhetorical tools of communication. You are misapplying John 13:35 "to love one another", does not mean it is wrong to use different forms of communication to make a point, our Savior did. You frequently misapply God's word so that it fits your bias and your false gospel.

Matthew12:1-3; Jesus mocks the Pharisee's for not understanding the scriptures.

Definition: To Mock; n, Derision; insult.
Mocking; Imitating in contempt; mimicking; defeating; deluding.
@gb9 is NOT JESUS.

If he wants to be a disciple of Christ, then he has to follow the teachings of Christ and not use what Jesus did as an excuse to DISOBEY Him.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Amen! Keep preachin' God's word brother, the world needs to hear, "Our God Saves!" :)
God saves those that obey Him by doing the works He asks of us.

Luke 14:25-30
Discipleship Tested

25Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


Please note:

To be a disciple of Jesus, we must carry our weight --- this is the opposite of saying we are saved by faith only. Please post a verse that says all we need is faith....with no works, to maintain our salvation.

We must calculate the cost of our discipleship. If we are not willing to pay the price, we cannot be disciples.

Who had to finish the the building of the tower?
God?
The man?
Please notice that the MAN had to finish building the tower.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I understand Christian faith just fine.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Jesus also made a whip and drove the money exchangers out of the temple.

it's called balance.

so, instead of addressing what I said, you attack me for saying it. argument tactic 101.

and, one of us got banned and came back under a different name. one of us has not done this.

so, maybe the one who has should not be lecturing the other about integrity...
I dont' think you do gb9.

I attacked WHAT you said by posting two verses.
Please see post no. 81,142 again...

Here it is:

Truly, the Christian faith is not understood well by some here.
Jesus said:
If someone slaps you on the right cheek,,,DO NOT slap him back,
but turn to him the other cheek.

So you justify your action instead of asking forgiveness?
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 6:14-15

Just as you've misunderstood these verses, perhaps you're misunderstanding OTHER verses??
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
God saves those that obey Him by doing the works He asks of us.

romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Oh the irony. :eek:

I showed you what the BIBLE teaches. I quote scripture throughout my posts. :)
LOL
WHAT irony?
YOU are the one that's always bringing up the CC.
Just stick to the bible and stop bringing up the CC that hurt you so much you talk about it all the time.
The story about how faith is mixed with works is constantly repeated by you.
I know it by heart.
Enough.

Later.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It's cute how you pick the verses you like.
How about Ephesians 2:10
What does that mean.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Why are you so against works?
That's what you'll have to do if you want to be a disciple of Jesus.

None of the verses you stated say anything about NOT WORKING.
Find some of those....
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
It's cute how you pick the verses you like.
How about Ephesians 2:10
What does that mean.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Why are you so against works?
That's what you'll have to do if you want to be a disciple of Jesus.

None of the verses you stated say anything about NOT WORKING.
Find some of those....

Why would you imply im against works?

Who ever implied I was speaking of not working other than you?

I am against your false gospel which says that our works will save man.... when Jesus saves man
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Why would you imply im against works?

Who ever implied I was speaking of not working other than you?

I am against your false gospel which says that our works will save man.... when Jesus saves man
If you do not agree that works keep us saved,,,
it means you're against works.

If you're not against working..
WHY are you arguing with me instead of agreeing with me?

As to a false gospel,,,
You post scripture that does NOT support what you say.

You say above that Jesus saves man with no works from us...
Could you please post some scripture that supports this idea?
I cannot find any.