Does God want us to choose between law and grace?
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Since I'm not in any Christian circles, I had to look up the acronym of DBR to understand some of what you were saying.
I honestly don't know how you can say I have no traction and that I made this stuff up, when I presented more than one scripture to you that couldn't get much clearer. I don't make things up, I back them up, with scripture.
If scripture supported what you believe, I would believe it too.
I just don't see it that way because of what I was taught. Unlike you, no earthly man or woman taught me what I have written. I was told and lead by an inward voice I heard, along with a revelation of scripture that went with it.
Would you mind looking at and interpreting the below verse please?
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BYG1223 the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Does it or does it not say, we are born again BY the word of God?
Another word for "by" is, through. We are born again THROUGH the word of God.
The same word used in Eph 2:8
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved throughG1223 faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And doesn't 1Pe_1:23 call the word of God a "seed"? And isn't a seed an offspring or child of that which it was issued from?
If it were of a plant, it would be of, from, and grow up to be like, it's parent and bear the same kind of fruit as the parent.
And if it were a seed of and from a man, the same would apply.
And to go further, if it was a seed of and from God, wouldn't the same be true of it as it is for the other two examples?
The parable of the sower sowing seed is a prime example of the word of God being a seed of and from God.
And doesn't the word of God say this seed is alive or that it lives forever?
And didn't Jesus say, "except you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you"?
WHAT do you think His flesh is, that you must eat, and His blood, that you must drink, along with the water in the blood that cleanses you, in order for you to have this eternal life?
And just HOW do you think we eat His flesh and drink His blood?
The very same way everyone has received Jesus into their heart. By faith in God to fulfill His the promise of His word, that we received personally and acted on.
I honestly don't know how you can say I have no traction and that I made this stuff up, when I presented more than one scripture to you that couldn't get much clearer. I don't make things up, I back them up, with scripture.
If scripture supported what you believe, I would believe it too.
I just don't see it that way because of what I was taught. Unlike you, no earthly man or woman taught me what I have written. I was told and lead by an inward voice I heard, along with a revelation of scripture that went with it.
Would you mind looking at and interpreting the below verse please?
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BYG1223 the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Does it or does it not say, we are born again BY the word of God?
Another word for "by" is, through. We are born again THROUGH the word of God.
The same word used in Eph 2:8
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved throughG1223 faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And doesn't 1Pe_1:23 call the word of God a "seed"? And isn't a seed an offspring or child of that which it was issued from?
If it were of a plant, it would be of, from, and grow up to be like, it's parent and bear the same kind of fruit as the parent.
And if it were a seed of and from a man, the same would apply.
And to go further, if it was a seed of and from God, wouldn't the same be true of it as it is for the other two examples?
The parable of the sower sowing seed is a prime example of the word of God being a seed of and from God.
And doesn't the word of God say this seed is alive or that it lives forever?
And didn't Jesus say, "except you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you"?
WHAT do you think His flesh is, that you must eat, and His blood, that you must drink, along with the water in the blood that cleanses you, in order for you to have this eternal life?
And just HOW do you think we eat His flesh and drink His blood?
The very same way everyone has received Jesus into their heart. By faith in God to fulfill His the promise of His word, that we received personally and acted on.
Jesus was talking about the letter of the law, for knowledge of the law brings death, but the Spirit gives the letter, life.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The gospels of Jesus Christ are not letters that kill, but words that are spirit that give life to those who receive them.
To receive the truth of the gospel of Jesus, is to receive Jesus.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The gospels of Jesus Christ are not letters that kill, but words that are spirit that give life to those who receive them.
To receive the truth of the gospel of Jesus, is to receive Jesus.
Not the bible, but the word of God that is spirit.
It is indeed Jesus who saves, but I doubt it is He Himself who enters.
Who created all that is in existence, both seen and invisible?
The word of God says Jesus did it, right?
But the bible also says the worlds were made BY THE WORD OF GOD, doesn't it?
Question.
Who takes the credit for building or erecting a structure? The head guy or the workers who actually did the work?
Who gets the credits for winning a war? The one directing the troops or the troops themselves?
The same is true with the framing of the worlds and all that is in existence.
Jesus being the head guy of the project, directed the workers, which is His word, and it was the word itself that did the actual work.
It is indeed Jesus who saves, but I doubt it is He Himself who enters.
Who created all that is in existence, both seen and invisible?
The word of God says Jesus did it, right?
But the bible also says the worlds were made BY THE WORD OF GOD, doesn't it?
Question.
Who takes the credit for building or erecting a structure? The head guy or the workers who actually did the work?
Who gets the credits for winning a war? The one directing the troops or the troops themselves?
The same is true with the framing of the worlds and all that is in existence.
Jesus being the head guy of the project, directed the workers, which is His word, and it was the word itself that did the actual work.
As you know, we have been talking about Levitical Law on another thread. This is a subject I studied some years ago and if I may, I will post some notes I made at the time. Please note the late date : -
The Levitical laws were written down on scrolls by Levite priests about the 3rd century AD., and because Moses was from the tribe of Levi they are sometimes known as the Mosaic Law. The law books are the first five books of the Old Testament otherwise known as the Pentateuch.
The 613 laws or commandments were extracted from the first five book of the Bible collectively known as the Pentateuch or the books of the law. The tradition that 613 commandments is the number of mitzvot in the Torah, began in the 3rd century CE, when Rabbi Simlai mentioned it in a sermon that is recorded in Talmud Makkot 23b.
https://en.wikipedia...13_commandments
The list we have today was codified by the Spaniard, Maimonides. He was born in 1135.
https://en.wikipedia...13_commandments
The laws and customs of the Land of Israel in Judaism are special Jewish laws that apply only to the Land of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia...rael_in_Judaism
The Levitical laws were written down on scrolls by Levite priests about the 3rd century AD., and because Moses was from the tribe of Levi they are sometimes known as the Mosaic Law. The law books are the first five books of the Old Testament otherwise known as the Pentateuch.
The 613 laws or commandments were extracted from the first five book of the Bible collectively known as the Pentateuch or the books of the law. The tradition that 613 commandments is the number of mitzvot in the Torah, began in the 3rd century CE, when Rabbi Simlai mentioned it in a sermon that is recorded in Talmud Makkot 23b.
https://en.wikipedia...13_commandments
The list we have today was codified by the Spaniard, Maimonides. He was born in 1135.
https://en.wikipedia...13_commandments
The laws and customs of the Land of Israel in Judaism are special Jewish laws that apply only to the Land of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia...rael_in_Judaism
Who is hebrews written to?
You pull that "it is not written to Gods people" line like a gun slinger.
You think that negates Parts of the bible?
Who was psalm 23 written " to"
Psalm 91?
Revelation?
Acts?
Do those books count?
James was one of the first books of the church. They were probably 100% Jewish
The Jews had scattered the first church through persecution.
James neither disclosed his location,or the fact that the letter was to the churches due to the need to lay low and not disclose information.
If his letter was to non messianic jews,he knew they would burn it on sight.
You really think non messianic Jews practiced forgiveness of sin with out the law??????
You think Jews had churches and elders?????
Hebrews under that "who is it to" disclaimer,must needs be brushed aside also huh?
You pull that "it is not written to Gods people" line like a gun slinger.
You think that negates Parts of the bible?
Who was psalm 23 written " to"
Psalm 91?
Revelation?
Acts?
Do those books count?
James was one of the first books of the church. They were probably 100% Jewish
The Jews had scattered the first church through persecution.
James neither disclosed his location,or the fact that the letter was to the churches due to the need to lay low and not disclose information.
If his letter was to non messianic jews,he knew they would burn it on sight.
You really think non messianic Jews practiced forgiveness of sin with out the law??????
You think Jews had churches and elders?????
Hebrews under that "who is it to" disclaimer,must needs be brushed aside also huh?
I don't know anyone here who is doing that actually. The number of Churches who do not believe in rightly dividing the Word according to Jews, Church and Gentiles are way more than those who do.
In my country for example, there is only 1 church that I know who does that. The majority of the Methodists, Anglicans, Charisimatics, whatever you can think of, preach mostly from the 4 Gospels, and rarely if ever talk about Paul, and if they do, they focus on the imperatives rather than the indicatives. They love to use the Sermon of the Mount especially as instructions to the Gentiles.
In my country for example, there is only 1 church that I know who does that. The majority of the Methodists, Anglicans, Charisimatics, whatever you can think of, preach mostly from the 4 Gospels, and rarely if ever talk about Paul, and if they do, they focus on the imperatives rather than the indicatives. They love to use the Sermon of the Mount especially as instructions to the Gentiles.
My point is,the paulines say " oh those gospels are bad news". "If they are for the church then you MUST follow all the commands to the pharisees"
That is your talking point.
You guys made that up.
But you,a supposed follower of paul, UNDER YOUR RULES OF INTERPRETATION, omit the ordinances and activities of Paul,as well as his basis for authority.
Shave your head
Take a vow
Preach in synagogues,and do so radically as to get arrested.
Go to hotbeds and get Hindus and Muslims to stone you etc.
THAT IS The YOKE,you place on others that read the gospels correctly as to the church.
You say the church needs to follow the gospels under some made up pauline adherents yoke of following jewish law.
Out of your own mouth you have the sermon on the mount as a bogeyman.
This is actually a very easy question. What is perplexing to many new believers as well as illusive to many so called mature believers is how to allow both the law and grace to coexist within the framework of Faith found in scripture.
The first point of misconception is that word Law. Law in the Septuagint translators vocabulary is Nomia. Where the origin of this word comes from is from the word Torah. In the ideology of the Hebrew person's mind is not in the word Law but rather instruction.
So to continue on this frame of reference I am going to use a story about life we have been given through scripture.
There was once a man who was using an axe next to a stream. As he was working the axe head flew off the handle and fell into the stream. In agony he cried out to Elohim for help. Now before I continue we must understand the symbol and meaning of a fish. For the axe head came to life and swam right up to the man. A fish is also a symbol of life. When Elohim brought close "life" to this man who was in need he didn't hand it to him. Rather he requires us to pick it up. So it is with Salvation through faith by grace.
We have been shown that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of Elohim and are in need of Salvation. When you come to that knowledge and pray for forgiveness it is only the first step in our redemption. What is missing from the full teachings of Messiah is Sanctification. So simply put the law has become our instruction for how to live a godly life and not condemnation for sin. It has been filled with a life giving spirit for our correction and edification as one assembly under the head, Messiah.
Shalom John Talmid
The first point of misconception is that word Law. Law in the Septuagint translators vocabulary is Nomia. Where the origin of this word comes from is from the word Torah. In the ideology of the Hebrew person's mind is not in the word Law but rather instruction.
So to continue on this frame of reference I am going to use a story about life we have been given through scripture.
There was once a man who was using an axe next to a stream. As he was working the axe head flew off the handle and fell into the stream. In agony he cried out to Elohim for help. Now before I continue we must understand the symbol and meaning of a fish. For the axe head came to life and swam right up to the man. A fish is also a symbol of life. When Elohim brought close "life" to this man who was in need he didn't hand it to him. Rather he requires us to pick it up. So it is with Salvation through faith by grace.
We have been shown that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of Elohim and are in need of Salvation. When you come to that knowledge and pray for forgiveness it is only the first step in our redemption. What is missing from the full teachings of Messiah is Sanctification. So simply put the law has become our instruction for how to live a godly life and not condemnation for sin. It has been filled with a life giving spirit for our correction and edification as one assembly under the head, Messiah.
Shalom John Talmid
God want us to chose grace. Because we are not able to produce or do the law, when we chose grace than that grace Will help us to do the law of love.
Back to John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jesus say branch can not bear the fruit of itself.
Fruit of the Holy spirit is love
Love is the spirit of law
Matt 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So when we do love we do the law.
Do not steal > when we love a person we not steal from, instead we give something to that person.
Can we chose to do the law?
We may not steal, can we do love, pure love?
Not without grace. Jesus say the branch can not bear the fruit of itself.
So do not chose law because It is not a choice. You don't have ability to chose do the law.
Chose grace than Jesus do the law through you, not that you have ability to do the law, but Jesus in you
You No longer yourself but Jesus in you
Galatians 2
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [a]in vain.”
NO LONGER I WHO LIVE! BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME
Who chose to do the law?
Is that you?
How you chose when you die, you No longer live.
Can death person do the law?
Can death person chose something?
Logically speaking, If a person against the law, It mean he still a live, Jesus not live in him yet
I believe we are oN and off, some time we let Jesus live in us, and we die, some time we ask Jesus to go and we want to live for ourself.
Chose a grace do not mean chose against the law of love.
Chose a grace mean chose to die and let Jesus live oN us.
Back to John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jesus say branch can not bear the fruit of itself.
Fruit of the Holy spirit is love
Love is the spirit of law
Matt 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So when we do love we do the law.
Do not steal > when we love a person we not steal from, instead we give something to that person.
Can we chose to do the law?
We may not steal, can we do love, pure love?
Not without grace. Jesus say the branch can not bear the fruit of itself.
So do not chose law because It is not a choice. You don't have ability to chose do the law.
Chose grace than Jesus do the law through you, not that you have ability to do the law, but Jesus in you
You No longer yourself but Jesus in you
Galatians 2
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [a]in vain.”
NO LONGER I WHO LIVE! BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME
Who chose to do the law?
Is that you?
How you chose when you die, you No longer live.
Can death person do the law?
Can death person chose something?
Logically speaking, If a person against the law, It mean he still a live, Jesus not live in him yet
I believe we are oN and off, some time we let Jesus live in us, and we die, some time we ask Jesus to go and we want to live for ourself.
Chose a grace do not mean chose against the law of love.
Chose a grace mean chose to die and let Jesus live oN us.
so does that mean that these books do not apply to us.
Are you saying "If it is not by Paul it doesn't apply" ????
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Don't Start taking the word away, please don't start to say that the bible only applies where it suits you. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, Not half or some. ALL.
Are you saying "If it is not by Paul it doesn't apply" ????
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Don't Start taking the word away, please don't start to say that the bible only applies where it suits you. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, Not half or some. ALL.
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I am saying ALL scripture is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT us, nor directed TO us.
For example, we don't build an ark now, even though God told Noah to build one. But we learn from Noah putting his faith in God.
Another example, we don't sacrifice a lamb now for our sins, but we can learn from Leviticus how Jesus is the sin offering, the trespass offering, the burnt offering and so on and so forth.
For example, we don't build an ark now, even though God told Noah to build one. But we learn from Noah putting his faith in God.
Another example, we don't sacrifice a lamb now for our sins, but we can learn from Leviticus how Jesus is the sin offering, the trespass offering, the burnt offering and so on and so forth.
Yer i agree all scripture is For us.
Do you think the reason much of the old testament is given is so we can understand what God is doing today?
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb_5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb_6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
The temple/ tabernacle that God told Moses to build was after the pattern of the one in Heaven and for us to understand the ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary we need to study the old testament sanctuary.
Do you think the reason much of the old testament is given is so we can understand what God is doing today?
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb_5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb_6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
The temple/ tabernacle that God told Moses to build was after the pattern of the one in Heaven and for us to understand the ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary we need to study the old testament sanctuary.
I hope you don't mind me intruding on the conversation, but I have been having a conversation with Guojing about Levitical or Priestly Law, and the scriptures above reminded me that it is because we have a new High Priest in Christ Jesus that the old Levitical Law has been superseded. Thank you.
I will go now.
I will go now.
I hope you don't mind me intruding on the conversation, but I have been having a conversation with Guojing about Levitical or Priestly Law, and the scriptures above reminded me that it is because we have a new High Priest in Christ Jesus that the old Levitical Law has been superseded. Thank you.
I will go now.
I will go now.
The Lord Jesus Himself said not one jot or tittle will fall from the law until ALL is fulfilled.
SO if the Lord didn't fulfill ALL then ALL is still in force.
That's why the silliness of the Hebrew Roots and Legalists can't work or make sense. It directly contradicts what the Lord has said and what Paul says.
su·per·sede
/ˌso͞opərˈsēd/
verb
/ˌso͞opərˈsēd/
verb
- take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant.
"the older models have now been superseded"
synonyms:replace, supplant, take the place of, take over from, substitute for, displace, oust, overthrow, remove, unseat, override
Sorry Grandpa you are wrong.
Violent men since the beginning have been trying to take the Kingdom of Elohim by force.
Messiah did not do away with, replace, substitute, or supplant the righteous instruction of the Father. He taught it and kept it. So did the early assembly Apostles and teachers by the way.
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