Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84,081
#84,081
TruthTalk said:
Hi E-gratefull, I was just going over the same post as you are and if you take a second look I believe that "Decon" is saying that, "safswan" "is the person who was previously banned", not our feend Decon. The part that you read in the post was safswan quoting decon, check it out.....:)
Click to expand...
Yes, thank you, my bad.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,083
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,083
dcontroversal said:
No, what is sad is one who twists the word to say something it does not say...........

Paul said it was by GRACE not the GIFT of works.....get your facts straight.......and the reason the churches and people are so screwed up is because of the embellished and twisted crap that gets taught and proclaimed as truth from those twisting the word.....SHOW us all where the verse you cite even begins to indicate that works are a gift from GOD

English Standard Version
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Berean Study Bible
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

Berean Literal Bible
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me has not been void. Rather, I toiled more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

New American Standard Bible
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

King James Bible
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving it as a gift? Let me know. Oh, BTW, Lightbearer helped me out and provided Philippians 1:11

Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Good works are part of fruits of righteousness, and they are by (ie come by or through) Christ, which makes them part of Grace. And grace is defined as something given that is unmerited, ie a gift.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#84,084
Apr 7, 2014
25,482
13,421
113
58
#84,084
safswan said:
Your avoidance of the question I asked is the reason for your continued misunderstanding of James.You are adding to scripture by using the word "claim". The context of the passage supports no such thing.I ask again:

"Was Abraham's faith, "mere" or not, "saving faith" ? Why then did he have to be justified by works as James says?(James 2:21)Was Abraham also claiming to have faith?
Click to expand...
What am I avoiding? I added nothing to scripture as the word “says-claims” is clearly stated in James 2:14. Neither the text or I am implying that Abraham merely “claimed” to have faith. He truly had faith which was evidenced by works, in contrast to those who merely say-claim they have faith but have no works.

Abraham’s faith was saving and I already explained why in post #83,239. Be sure to go back and read it again. Not sure why you’re having such a difficult time understanding this.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,085
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,085
Macabeus said:
What is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving it as a gift? Let me know.
Click to expand...
Macabeus said:
What is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving it as a gift? Let me know. Oh, BTW, Lightbearer helped me out and provided Philippians 1:11

Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Good works are part of fruits of righteousness, and they are by (ie come by or through) Christ, which makes them part of Grace. And grace is defined as something given that is unmerited, ie a gift.
Click to expand...
Also, all fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit in us (Galatians 5), and the Spirit is a gift from God.

Good works are the outworking of the spiritual fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. IF the Spirit is a gift, then the fruit He produces is a gift too.

Just as sin nature is part of what we received from Adam, so also new nature fruits are something we received from Christ. ANd the new nature is given without cost or price or merit, therefore IT IS A GIFT.

ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO LIFE AND GODLINESS ARE GIFTS OF GOD.

Theology 101
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,086
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,086
Macabeus said:
Also, all fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit in us (Galatians 5), and the Spirit is a gift from God.

Good works are the outworking of the spiritual fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. IF the Spirit is a gift, then the fruit He produces is a gift too.

Just as sin nature is part of what we received from Adam, so also new nature fruits are something we received from Christ. ANd the new nature is given without cost or price or merit, therefore IT IS A GIFT.

ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO LIFE AND GODLINESS ARE GIFTS OF GOD.

Theology 101
Click to expand...
WE have nothing that pertains to salvation, life, and godliness that was not given to us by God, ie it is all part of the gift. Eternal life is a gift, and eternal life does not begin when we die, we presently possess it. And it is not merely a quantity of life, it is a QUALITY of life. TO know God and the one He sent. And this knowledge produces fruit. and the fruit born internally manifests itself externally
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,087
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,087
DC and Bud, IF you don't think fruit/works are part of and included in the gift of faith, then try making lemons without having a tree. Or lemonade without having lemons.

Genuine fruit without faith- like trying to make lemons without a tree.

Good works acceptable to God without fruit of the Spirit- trying to make lemonade without lemons.

Whatever you make would be ARTIFICIAL.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#84,088
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#84,088
safswan said:
The import of the passage in question is lost on you.The person who believes is saved.But is this the end of the matter? No!! Jesus says they are only truly His if they continue in His word.Your erroneous doctrine would have them believe but then not continue in His word,not be disciples but still be saved.Preposterous!!

Do you understand the difference between the case of the thief on the cross and that of the woman caught in adultery?
Click to expand...
blah blah blah......you and your buddy are still peddling nothing but deceit...........
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#84,089
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
#84,089
Macabeus said:
DC and Bud, IF you don't think fruit/works are part of and included in the gift of faith, then try making lemons without having a tree. Or lemonade without having lemons.

Genuine fruit without faith- like trying to make lemons without a tree.

Good works acceptable to God without fruit of the Spirit- trying to make lemonade without lemons.

Whatever you make would be ARTIFICIAL.
Click to expand...
I think they understand your argument, hey.
They just disagree.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#84,090
#84,090
Macabeus said:
This is why I prefer the term "perserverance of the saints". Because perserverance is based on God keeping us, and OSAS seems to be often the position that even momentary faith that passes like a vapor punches the ticket and ensures heaven. Saving faith does is not temporary
Click to expand...
Perseverance means the person perservers, God does not perserver for us, therefore this concept is opposite of the believer"s assurance of salvation.

As well your phrase
momentary faith
Click to expand...
saving faith is not about duration it is about the object of the faith which is God.

Saving faith is exactly that, it is faith that believes the Gospel message.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#84,091
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#84,091
Hevosmies said:
I think they understand your argument, hey.
They just disagree.
Click to expand...
Exactly.....and no matter how loud he yells.....it will not change the fact that faith and salvation are the gift....works/fruit are the direct the result of the GIFT.......and NOT THE GIFT......

He went to seed on something, refuses to acknowledge truth and like many that get busted in a false application of the word refuses in pride to acknowledge the truth....end of story....
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#84,092
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#84,092
Macabeus said:
DC and Bud, IF you don't think fruit/works are part of and included in the gift of faith, then try making lemons without having a tree. Or lemonade without having lemons.

Genuine fruit without faith- like trying to make lemons without a tree.

Good works acceptable to God without fruit of the Spirit- trying to make lemonade without lemons.

Whatever you make would be ARTIFICIAL.
Click to expand...
You can type in letters as big as the Holly Wood sign and in neon lights....it will not change the fact that works and fruit are the result of the faith and salvation that have been given as a gift........they are NOT the gift, but the results of the GIFT..........end of story.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#84,093
#84,093
safswan said:
Read all of what Paul writes and not just a portion.Also read what is written by others and avoid misquoting.The statement was not "dual action", but "dual nature". The fact is,after being declared righteous,one is not expected to continue in sin.Do you teach that one who does will still be saved?Paul teaches no such thing.(Romans 6:1,2;12:1,2;I Corinthians 6:9-11)
Click to expand...

I agree that it is dual nature, what you fail to realize is that flesh will still sin and the source of our salvation comes from the righteous life of Jesus and not by our human effort.

Our job is to pursue righteousness, that is, live the life of Christ within us, so you see the focus has shifted away from sin to Jesus and His life hid within us. That is the only place from which we can live in victory.

However, we must always realize the flesh, the world and Satan persist until we take our last breathe.

Those that fall into sin have not learned to walk in the Spirit and have once again been overcome by the flesh which can and does happen, and God does deal with us when this happens.

Yet they are still justified and will stay justified because they have the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,094
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,094
dcontroversal said:
Exactly.....and no matter how loud he yells.....it will not change the fact that faith and salvation are the gift....works/fruit are the direct the result of the GIFT.......and NOT THE GIFT......

He went to seed on something, refuses to acknowledge truth and like many that get busted in a false application of the word refuses in pride to acknowledge the truth....end of story....
Click to expand...
Results of the gift? You mean like fruit on a tree? So if I give you a lemon tree sapling, the fruit that it produces is not part of the gift?

Ok, take credit for what God does in and through you, and I will give the Glory to God.

It is God who works in you both to will and to do. All credit goes to Him.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,095
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,095
dcontroversal said:
You can type in letters as big as the Holly Wood sign and in neon lights....it will not change the fact that works and fruit are the result of the faith and salvation that have been given as a gift........they are NOT the gift, but the results of the GIFT..........end of story.
Click to expand...
dcontroversal said:
You can type in letters as big as the Holly Wood sign and in neon lights....it will not change the fact that works and fruit are the result of the faith and salvation that have been given as a gift........they are NOT the gift, but the results of the GIFT..........end of story.
Click to expand...
Fruits of righteousness are given and come through Christ. Phil 1:11. Therefore, they are of grace. Grace is a gift. All is of grace, none of it is given by merit, bought, or earned

We have NOTHING that was not GIVEN to us. No righteousness, no fruit, nothing. All is of grace, given by God. End of story

And as always you about questions, like you avoided the two sons question for days. You still have not answered what is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving a gift. This is at least the third time I've asked you. Have you answered?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#84,096
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#84,096
What is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving it as a gift? Forth or Fifth time I've asked you

Please reply, and then read the verses I gave you and your reply yesterday again
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#84,097
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
113
#84,097
Hevosmies said:
Good morning dear.

I dont have that yet, but its probably about to "POP UP" soon (pun intended).
Click to expand...

Out of all the names I have been called on here, I hate "dear" the most. Dear is what you call your grandma. LOL

And I ain't NOBODIES grandma...
 
TruthTalk

TruthTalk

Senior Member
#84,098
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
#84,098
Macabeus said:
DC and Bud, IF you don't think fruit/works are part of and included in the gift of faith, then try making lemons without having a tree. Or lemonade without having lemons.
Click to expand...
Hi Macaeus, reality check here, the "only thing" that resembles a "tree" albeit and orange tree or a lemon tree in your analogies, it is "the tree that our Savior shed His blood upon" and died and then was raised from the dead for our justification; the tree which is"The Cross of Calvary."

Abraham was credited as righteous because he believed God, "Not By Works." "However to the one who does not work but believes in Him;" the bible say's believing is not a work.

We are Gods workmanship and saved, "unto good works" we are not saved by "our good works."

There is no boasting of works before God there is only boasting in the work of our Savior Jesus Christ period.

Romans 4:1-6
1) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? 2) If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, 'but not before God.' 3) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”4) Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. 5) However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6) And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
 
G

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
#84,099
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
#84,099
works cant "save" you, but when you get saved you will work

James 2:18 (KJV)
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

does a bird fly, working to become a bird?
does a fish swim, working to become a fish?

a bird flies because it is a bird!
a fish swims because it is a fish!

as a christian we are not working to become a christian, we work for the Lord because we are one!!!!!

the bible says old things are passed away and behold all things become new

things you loved you now hate, things you hate you now love

you dont smoke, you dont chew, you dont run with those that do (as the old timers us to say)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#84,100
#84,100
Macabeus said:
What is the difference between receiving something by grace and receiving it as a gift? Forth or Fifth time I've asked you

Please reply, and then read the verses I gave you and your reply yesterday again
Click to expand...
Salvation is the gift

Grace is telling us that God gives the gift of salvation, completely by His love, which apart from our worthiness of the gift
 
You must log in or register to reply here.