Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a religious fallacy. Salvation is only losable if you have it.
You need to define what salvation is, and then from this definition, its permanence or possible loss is obvious.

Some claim salvation is a declaration of belief.
Others it is a walk according to certain principles
Others it is a spiritual birth that is eternal and irrevocable.
Others it is a promise to be fulfilled in the future.
Others it is going from death to life in the present.
Others it is a communion.

Some mix all these things together, others hold one or more is critical.
So the answer is complex, and needs humblness, care, love, grace, gentleness, the Holy Spirit, commitment,
faithfulness, and more to begin to come close the to the balances involved.

I can only know my walk with my Lord, and it is here that my obligation lies.
So I wonder about the encouragement to judge others, condemn them and claim I know more.

My Father, Abba Father, I just love. I desire to know Him more, what does that make me?

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

Is there something wrong with Jesus's teaching?

Salvation, what is it?

I think paul gives a good explanation.

Col 2: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes, we are sons by promise but because in our flesh dwells no good thing; we might want to become slaves to obedience. We are creatures of habit, after all.

Romans 6:17-23 "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (ESV)."

I like the way Paul puts it. Willing slavery so we can become sons and co-inheritors.

I don't have an answer. Am wondering now why I never noted that word slaves. So I looked at all the scriptures with the word righteousness, and it seems to be conflicting. So will get back to you. This would be a good thread on it's own. I always thought upright when it comes to morality.

 

[dcontroversal]

NO

This is a religious fallacy. Salvation is only losable if you have it.
You need to define what salvation is, and then from this definition, its permanence or possible loss is obvious.

Some claim salvation is a declaration of belief.
Others it is a walk according to certain principles
Others it is a spiritual birth that is eternal and irrevocable.
Others it is a promise to be fulfilled in the future.
Others it is going from death to life in the present.
Others it is a communion.

Some mix all these things together, others hold one or more is critical.
So the answer is complex, and needs humblness, care, love, grace, gentleness, the Holy Spirit, commitment,
faithfulness, and more to begin to come close the to the balances involved.

I can only know my walk with my Lord, and it is here that my obligation lies.
So I wonder about the encouragement to judge others, condemn them and claim I know more.

My Father, Abba Father, I just love. I desire to know Him more, what does that make me?

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

Is there something wrong with Jesus's teaching?

No verses teach a LOSABLE salvation in CONTEXT.....but when RELIGIOUS LOST MEN conflate salvation with ONGOING sanctification they can ERRONEOUSLY come up with any number of false BELIEF systems

 

[dcontroversal]

Salvation, what is it?

I think paul gives a good explanation.

Col 2: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

We have another live one here......I said the following and he accused me of saying that believers can be led to the pit...do you see me saying that believers can be led to the pit in that statement....just like almost every man and woman on this site that teaches a losable salvation.....they absolutely cannot be honest with what we say...they MUST embellish or add to it

MY QUOTE -->AMEN Billy................I love the Greek.....it sets us free from the religious fallacies that lead many to the pit....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

And you do not know what you are talking about......for real...

For real, you are not in heaven, in a transformed body, face to face with Jesus.
Until that day we have a hope..........that is for real

We often feel safe and secure, yet this is just an emotional delusion from a life
style that is without stress or danger. But we are always only one heart beat away
from meeting the Lord, for real, when no barrier or delusions will defend or protect
us anymore.

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal
2 Corinthians 4:18

 

[dcontroversal]

For real, you are not in heaven, in a transformed body, face to face with Jesus.
Until that day we have a hope..........that is for real

We often feel safe and secure, yet this is just an emotional delusion from a life
style that is without stress or danger. But we are always only one heart beat away
from meeting the Lord, for real, when no barrier or delusions will defend or protect
us anymore.

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal
2 Corinthians 4:18

For real...I have been BORN again from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE seed dia grace through faith....SALVATION is a present current POSSESSION.....wake up pal....

 

[Poinsetta]

I quit drinking them a while back..........they are not good or us at all.........

Ugh really? I guess i’m joining the club, there must be a reason i’m following the crowd. lol

 

[FollowHisSteps]

NO


No verses teach a LOSABLE salvation in CONTEXT.....but when RELIGIOUS LOST MEN conflate salvation with ONGOING sanctification they can ERRONEOUSLY come up with any number of false BELIEF systems

It is a religious fallacy to simplify complicated realities in Christ into simplistic ideas.

Judas - believer or not?
Peter - fallen into denial or saved through repentance?
Paul - Apostle or betrayer of Jewish tradition?

Once salvation is a "thing", it can be gained and lost.

God sees the heart, yet the heart is desperately wicked......
Gods people are Holy, yet they walk with God, and yet also fail?

among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Ephesians 5:3

Do you believe God has bought you with a price? How big is your faith and understanding of His work within you?
God will achieve His ends in your life.

The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:8-9

Brothers and sisters in Christ, He will achieve His work in our lives, Amen

 

[dcontroversal]

Ugh really? I guess i’m joining the club, there must be a reason i’m following the crowd. lol

I can tell you I feel way better.....when I would drink one I would wake up in the middle of the night as thirsty as and had a few other issues with them as well.......so much sugar and sodium and acid..........a coke will dissolve meat over a period of time.....

 

[dcontroversal]

It is a religious fallacy to simplify complicated realities in Christ into simplistic ideas.

Judas - believer or not?
Peter - fallen into denial or saved through repentance?
Paul - Apostle or betrayer of Jewish tradition?

Once salvation is a "thing", it can be gained and lost.

God sees the heart, yet the heart is desperately wicked......
Gods people are Holy, yet they walk with God, and yet also fail?

among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Ephesians 5:3

Do you believe God has bought you with a price? How big is your faith and understanding of His work within you?
God will achieve His ends in your life.

The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:8-9

Brothers and sisters in Christ, He will achieve His work in our lives, Amen

Hmmmm...My bible tells me to not be removed for the SIMPLICITY that is found in Christ..........what bible are you reading.....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I did answer........and show me where I said that BELIEVERS can be led to the PIT......HERE IS MY quote.....and I am gonna tell you one time....IF you cannot be HONEST with what I say, do no WASTE my time or yours by responding to ME......got it?

MY quote -->AMEN Billy................I love the Greek.....it sets us free from the religious fallacies that lead many to the pit....

NOW.....show me where I SAID that BELIEVERS can be led to the PIT and if you cannot understand my quote that is not my fault...it is clear.....the RELIGIOUS, just like the PHARISEES were MAKING people 2 fold the CHILDREN OF HELL by their DOGMA......JUST like the RELIGIOUS false religions ALWAYS HAVE and DO to this day.

I asked you a question, can believers be led to the pit?

I did not say you said they could or could not. I asked a question.
You appear very concerned about ideas. I am suggesting to you this is not why people are not saved.

Equally it appears you believe that believing the "right" things saves you.
This rabbit hole is not what God declares. "I am" "The word became flesh"
"Follow me" "Obey" "Overcome"

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Matthew 28:19-20

To believe Jesus is the Son of God, one needs to listen to what He is saying and follow it.
If one does not believe Him, then obviously they will not listen to Him or obey Him.

 

[dcontroversal]

I asked you a question, can believers be led to the pit?

I did not say you said they could or could not. I asked a question.
You appear very concerned about ideas. I am suggesting to you this is not why people are not saved.

Equally it appears you believe that believing the "right" things saves you.
This rabbit hole is not what God declares. "I am" "The word became flesh"
"Follow me" "Obey" "Overcome"

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Matthew 28:19-20

To believe Jesus is the Son of God, one needs to listen to what He is saying and follow it.
If one does not believe Him, then obviously they will not listen to Him or obey Him.

The bolded is one of the most ignorant things you have said so far man....how many gospels of salvation do you think there is....?

It i indeed what GOD proclaimed....I AM the DOOR...there is ONE way and ONLY ONE way and ONLY one correct MESSAGE of salvation.....

FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD...ONE MUST believe the RIGHT thing to be born again from above....

 

[Deade]

Salvation, what is it?

I think paul gives a good explanation.

Col 2: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Her Paul was warning the Colossians about people coming in and adding to what he taught to them about following Christ. The lead in:

Col. 2:6-8 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

These people were trying to add new ordinances of what to handle - not handle, new holy days and new requirements for salvation. You notice Paul was urging them to obedience to walk on how they received Christ from him. He was not speaking on what they already knew.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

For real...I have been BORN again from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE seed dia grace through faith....SALVATION is a present current POSSESSION.....wake up pal....

"I have been BORN again from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE" - this is very religious language -
Jesus declares many will believe they have achieved lots and yet have nothing.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:21

Claiming promises is not the door to the Kingdom, but doing the will of the Father.
The will of the Father is expressed through His commands.

Aim for perfection 2 Cor 13:11

Jesus declared this about where peoples hearts are

Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.
John 18:37

Jesus says some very difficult things, because we are sinners and He is God.
It would always be like this, because He is the Light.

 

[dcontroversal]

"I have been BORN again from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE" - this is very religious language -
Jesus declares many will believe they have achieved lots and yet have nothing.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:21

Claiming promises is not the door to the Kingdom, but doing the will of the Father.
The will of the Father is expressed through His commands.

Aim for perfection 2 Cor 13:11

Jesus declared this about where peoples hearts are

Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.
John 18:37

Jesus says some very difficult things, because we are sinners and He is God.
It would always be like this, because He is the Light.

Are you dense? My quote is biblical.......and like I said....you are proving to be dishonest..........not good man.....people who are dishonest while claiming to know the Lord..........not good man...we're done pal......I cannot stand dishonest religious people that argue the truth for the sake of arguing nor those that can make flippant ignorant statements about the truth as you have done....

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[stonesoffire]

[/QUOTE]

@stonesoffire

How come I never get answers on this thread?
Are the questions too difficult?

I study words. It's the way I roll, and actually received 2 prophecies about this very thing. So who should I obey? You or Jesus?
Did you ask me a question? If so I didn't see it.
I haven't said anything about this here except for one person. I have limited time. My daughter was in a bad accident; hit by a police car that was full speed going to a call. Car totaled and her neck so badly injured that she has a plate now holding three vertebras. Then developed complications. I am caring for her.

 

[dcontroversal]

I study words. It's the way I roll, and actually received 2 prophecies about this very thing. So who should I obey? You or Jesus?
Did you ask me a question? If so I didn't see it.
I haven't said anything about this here except for one person. I have limited time. My daughter was in a bad accident; hit by a police car that was full speed going to a call. Car totaled and her neck so badly injured that she has a plate now holding three vertebras. Then developed complications. I am caring for her.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear....pray and hope she gets better.....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The bolded is one of the most ignorant things you have said so far man....how many gospels of salvation do you think there is....?

It i indeed what GOD proclaimed....I AM the DOOR...there is ONE way and ONLY ONE way and ONLY one correct MESSAGE of salvation.....

FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD...ONE MUST believe the RIGHT thing to be born again from above....

Here you are, declaring I am right. Salvation in your view is merely a belief exam.
You think salvation is this belief list tick box.

What I mean by this, is there is a big difference between beliefs about reality and how
we change and react to these realities. Demons believe yet cannot do anything to change
their fate.

Free will dictates what we do matters. If we have no consequences to our actions then we
are not free. Equally if we can choose to enter a gate, we can equally choose to walk out again.

God declares we are born from above, but not out of our will. And our birth is Gods choice.
We believe we know the conditions, except they are not spelt out.

You are the light of the world
Matthew 5:14

we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:28-29

We are Gods work, and though we believe we understand and choose, we can but bow and acknowledge He is our King and Lord. Amen

 

[dcontroversal]

Here you are, declaring I am right. Salvation in your view is merely a belief exam.
You think salvation is this belief list tick box.

What I mean by this, is there is a big difference between beliefs about reality and how
we change and react to these realities. Demons believe yet cannot do anything to change
their fate.

Free will dictates what we do matters. If we have no consequences to our actions then we
are not free. Equally if we can choose to enter a gate, we can equally choose to walk out again.

God declares we are born from above, but not out of our will. And our birth is Gods choice.
We believe we know the conditions, except they are not spelt out.

You are the light of the world
Matthew 5:14

we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:28-29

We are Gods work, and though we believe we understand and choose, we can but bow and acknowledge He is our King and Lord. Amen

Keep dreaming pal....so far you are batting .0001 and like I said.....do not address me...your dishonesty does not lend to you being of or from God

 

[stonesoffire]

I study words. It's the way I roll, and actually received 2 prophecies about this very thing. So who should I obey? You or Jesus?
Did you ask me a question? If so I didn't see it.
I haven't said anything about this here except for one person. I have limited time. My daughter was in a bad accident; hit by a police car that was full speed going to a call. Car totaled and her neck so badly injured that she has a plate now holding three vertebras. Then developed complications. I am caring for her.

Sorry to hear....pray and hope she gets better.....[/QUOTE]

thank you Dcon...