Can I change reality with my words?

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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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this sounds more like spiritual witchcraft than anything else. be careful how you 'cast a spell' because it can come back to bite you'

you have illustrated a major problem with how some people use the Bible as a tool to 'get whatever' and picking verses that have zero to do with the subject at hand

let's look at the context of Romans 10: 8, but in order to do that, we will have to show what is really being said by Paul here and what he actually had in mind.

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of alland richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

here, you have taken an illustration of salvation, which Paul is basing on an understanding they already have concerning Moses, and twisted it to mean 'speaking the right words the right way will get you what you want'

personal note: sadly, I understand more and more why people shy away from certain groups and WOF and often ultra Charasmatic being a couple.

this passage is speaking of confession of faith in Christ...ie salvation

it is most certainly not speaking of blab it and grab it


no hornet's nest was stirred up that has not been thoroughly covered many many times in these forms

I will say again that there is absolute truth regarding our words as per scripture and you have some truth mixed in with what you say, but it is not as you say

I know about words, I know about cursing and I know about life and death in our words but the shameful and harmful thing here is the addition to the meaning of all the words that turn those who actually study the word OFF and discourage those who believe something is written about words, but become confused by all the twisting of those words

try again
I'm glad you brought that up, so let us delve a little deeper, and instead of seeing what is on the surface, let's examine the underlying principal in which Paul is using it for.

Paul clearly says there is a law of faith, and like all laws, it works the same way all the time, otherwise it would cease to be a law.
Paul also says faith is a spirit, like the Holy Spirit is a spirit.

2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

This is how faith works for us today, as it did for them back then, because we have the SAME SPIRIT OF FAITH, as they had.
You speak what you believe in your heart. That is faith in a nutshell.
Now let's again look at the same principle of HOW faith or the law of faith works in Romans 10:8-10.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Same principal of faith as in 2Corinthians. If you confess with your mouth what you believe in your heart, then it is or become what you just decreed.

Again, both death and/or destruction and life and/or healing are in the power of the tongue. It just doesn't say you have to believe what you say in your heart.
Let's look at yet another example of this law or principle of faith.

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God [or the faith of God].
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not [no] doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

It is repeated over and over again, all through the bible.
This is the basic principle of the law of faith and how the law of the word of faith works.
An example of it working on the negative side would be;
Let's say someone has the symptoms of a cold or flu, and because they feel ill, they soon start telling others how they feel and start confessing how they must have caught either a cold or the flu.
Whether they had the actual virus or not, matters not, they just establish it's existence and right to be there to inflict them.
According to your faith, whether it be in the positive or negative, be it done unto you.
Again, "To him that has [that which he believes he has], shall be given [to him].
So even though Romans is talking about salvation, healing, deliverance, protection, and making one whole, the principle of the law of faith is still there that makes it all work or manifest.
This is not an evil doctrine, or that of devils, nor is it a form of witchcraft, and neither did I twist what it said. I simply extrapolated the words that reveal the law itself and how it works.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
I can't agree with you here as it is sin that separates us from God

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

God's holiness brings us back into a proper relationship with Him, we should long for His holiness and draw near to Him that we might experience just a small taste of what yet is to come.

"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:19-22

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." (NKJV Strong's,) Hebrews 6:4-6

I agree that it is through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can partake in His holiness, as it cleanses us from our unrighteousness.

oh I know you CANT agree because we do not have the same understanding

I see you also do not understand what transpired that we are able to approach God as He is holy

perhaps refresh your memory of how the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies but once a year and even then with a rope tied to him in case he dropped dead by what was represented in that place

you have it backwards. sin separates us from God because He is holy .
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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The Lord therefore uses sickness, even to death; in order to chasten us so that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
BUT
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
AND
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

End of sin, end of judgement, end of problem.
Forgiveness of sins means, no sickness or death to use as punishment.
That, my friend, is what the blood of Jesus is there for, after salvation.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
know1 just knock it off

I know all about what you believe. your statement was without merit concerning Romans as I illustrated. you wanna use what Paul states as some kind of WOF referral? be my guest and explain that one day to the writer

thanks but no thanks

and shouting at people does not make you right :rolleyes:

back on ignore where I wish I had left you
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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In faith and in accordance with God's will. Faith alone will not bring about what God desires.

"He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Matthew 26:39

When we speak God's word, we should do so with an understanding that it may cause a response, not necessarily the response we may have thought would happen, but that which God has commissioned it to do.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
Yes, and the will of God has already been stated, and that is whatsoever WE SAY, WILL, OR DESIRE, according to the word of God, shall be done unto us.
What is written IS the will of God.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Even as God set both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden, He has done the same with us today. It is not God's will for us to get sick and die, but His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The will of God is that we might have and choose life, and that we might have it more abundantly.
And because the faith is a law that works according to what you both believe and say, whether it be for or against you and/or your family, it does so irrespective of the will of God.
To add "the will of God" to a promise that clearly states, "whatsoever you will", is to take it COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY out of context.
If you wouldn't add it to the promises concerning salvation, then you shouldn't do that to other promises, especially when it changes the meaning so drastically and moves it in another direction.
If faith will work against you, which is NOT the will of God, then why would it need to be in the will of God for it to work for you?
Again, if you don't know what the will of God is, YOU CANNOT HAVE ANY FAITH IN GOD TO ANSWER YOUR REQUEST OR CAUSE YOUR DECLARATION TO MANIFEST.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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know1 just knock it off

I know all about what you believe. your statement was without merit concerning Romans as I illustrated. you wanna use what Paul states as some kind of WOF referral? be my guest and explain that one day to the writer

thanks but no thanks

and shouting at people does not make you right :rolleyes:

back on ignore where I wish I had left you
I didn't know I was shouting. I just want some words to stand out, but you won't know what I'm saying, as you probably put me on ignore.
No matter, the important thing is that my conscience is clear.
I know, for some, the truth is hard to take, and for others, they cannot receive it.
This is just one truth you cannot receive, for it is just that..... a truth/law of God.
 

MJ1

Member
Jan 22, 2019
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oh I know you CANT agree because we do not have the same understanding

I see you also do not understand what transpired that we are able to approach God as He is holy

perhaps refresh your memory of how the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies but once a year and even then with a rope tied to him in case he dropped dead by what was represented in that place

you have it backwards. sin separates us from God because He is holy .
oh I know you CANT agree because we do not have the same understanding

Agreed

I see you also do not understand what transpired that we are able to approach God as He is holy

Supposition on your behalf, because you do not know if I understand what transpired, unless God wills it. But, let me now reveal it to you: It was the removal of sin, by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross that now allows me to approach the throne of grace.

perhaps refresh your memory of how the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies but once a year and even then with a rope tied to him in case he dropped dead by what was represented in that place

May I do the same, “refresh your memory”? We are no longer in the Old Testament. The Spirit now dwells within us, and it is Holy. So, we do not enter into the Holy of Holies but once a year, because Jesus has become our Great High Priest who sits at the right hand of God in Heaven. Our approach to God is unlimited, why, because He loves us and has died for us in the personage of Jesus Christ. And the only reason I can come to the throne of grace is because God has willed it. God’s holiness is not what kept me from Him, it was my sins that did that. It was through His holiness, that I as a sinner could be forgiven, and now come boldly before Him. The Spirit that abides in me is not separate from me, and it intercedes on my behalf, before my Father.

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:14-16

you have it backwards. sin separates us from God because He is holy .

You may be attributing sin with too much power for it is God who is King and ruler of the earth, not satan. It is God who separates us from His holiness in the same manner in which He threw satan out of the heavenly realms, along with satan’s angels. In a similar manner God had separated me from Himself because of sin.

Sin in itself did not separate me from God, - it is God who separated me from Himself. However sin separates us from God in that He will have nothing to do with it as a participant, for God does not do evil. Now please, don't misunderstand me when I say God will have nothing to do with sin, because God uses evil in His will to bring about His glory. Subsequently, that subject I will cover in another comment someone made within these discussion, Lord be willing.

You had said: “what actually separates us from God is HIS HOLINESS which we could never partake of without the sacrifice of His Son and the blood shed on the cross”

Holiness is an attribute of God, it is an inherent part of His character. It does not make up all of who God is. Thus, do you worship God’s holiness, or do you worship God? Therefore, God’s holiness alone does not separate us from God. God Himself separates us, not just one of His attributes.


Thanks for the sparring, it is interesting and I pray that God will allow it to help me grow.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Wolf, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that with enough faith we won't get sick. If anyone did, I didn't see it.
Yes, Stones, nobody said it directly.
But put i posts 36, 130,143,146,186,190,198,235,290,339,347,354,358 and 366 together it is very near to come to this conclusion.
Some compare to receive health in the same way, like salvation, through faith.
Ore talking from takeaway roadblocks for to receive it. (Whatever the roadblocks are)
I read in the gospels and in acts ore epistels to the church always from healing in physical sense. This healing was to see from others and the glorify God for it. (Not all)
What some, like Guojing proclaim is that we have already given our health, because Jesus died at the cross for it.
But this is spiritual sense.
This means this has no influence to our present deadly body.
What sense it makes to know: Jesus paid for my sickness and in spirituell sense I am healthy, but i am suffering under my sickness in my physical body?
This reminds me to the situation in the german protestant church, were at least the 3rd number of Pastors believe that Jesus is resurrected spiritual, but not physical.
If he is not resurrectet physical. We are still in our sins!
It is for an sick and suffering person useless to know that he is spiritual healthy, while he physical feel the pain.
So what is the help/ comfort/consolation/ usefulness for such a doctrine in our christian life here on earth?
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
"MJ1, post: 3852075, member: 280234"]oh I know you CANT agree because we do not have the same understanding

Agreed

I see you also do not understand what transpired that we are able to approach God as He is holy

Supposition on your behalf, because you do not know if I understand what transpired, unless God wills it. But, let me now reveal it to you: It was the removal of sin, by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross that now allows me to approach the throne of grace.

well you are very funny since I never said anything different. you butted into an exchange I had with another poster and told me you could not agree with me over something I said to him. you reveal nothing other than your now somewhat sketchy ability to follow a conversation.

perhaps refresh your memory of how the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies but once a year and even then with a rope tied to him in case he dropped dead by what was represented in that place

May I do the same, “refresh your memory”? We are no longer in the Old Testament. The Spirit now dwells within us, and it is Holy. So, we do not enter into the Holy of Holies but once a year, because Jesus has become our Great High Priest who sits at the right hand of God in Heaven. Our approach to God is unlimited, why, because He loves us and has died for us in the personage of Jesus Christ. And the only reason I can come to the throne of grace is because God has willed it. God’s holiness is not what kept me from Him, it was my sins that did that. It was through His holiness, that I as a sinner could be forgiven, and now come boldly before Him. The Spirit that abides in me is not separate from me, and it intercedes on my behalf, before my Father.

you do not present an accurate and biblical presentation of salvation. we are not saved by God's holiness, rather we are saved by the blood of His Son. the sacrificial system of the OT was an illustration of what was to come..which, if you knew, would help you to understand why I mentioned the High Priest. you do not approach God because of His holiness...you can only come through the blood of Christ

the Holy Spirit is within each believer, you have some strange notions and I am not going to debate with you over them

although I would be curious as to where you received this teaching regarding holiness. you sound indoctrinated to me and not thinking through what you are writing since at one point you agree with what I stated and then flip it again

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:14-16

you have it backwards. sin separates us from God because He is holy .

You may be attributing sin with too much power for it is God who is King and ruler of the earth, not satan. It is God who separates us from His holiness in the same manner in which He threw satan out of the heavenly realms, along with satan’s angels. In a similar manner God had separated me from Himself because of sin.

Sin in itself did not separate me from God, - it is God who separated me from Himself. However sin separates us from God in that He will have nothing to do with it as a participant, for God does not do evil. Now please, don't misunderstand me when I say God will have nothing to do with sin, because God uses evil in His will to bring about His glory. Subsequently, that subject I will cover in another comment someone made within these discussion, Lord be willing.

make up your mind. either sin separates us from God or it doesn't. this is what you are saying here. 1. sin in itself did not separate me from God. then you go on to say 2. however sin separates us from God in that He will have nothing to do with it

I hope you see that you actually contradict yourself in whatever type of reasoning you are engaged in


You had said: “what actually separates us from God is HIS HOLINESS which we could never partake of without the sacrifice of His Son and the blood shed on the cross”

Holiness is an attribute of God, it is an inherent part of His character. It does not make up all of who God is. Thus, do you worship God’s holiness, or do you worship God? Therefore, God’s holiness alone does not separate us from God. God Himself separates us, not just one of His attributes.

basically, God is holy in all His attributes. I did say God is holy in all that He does. you are adding to what I said and it changes what I said quite significantly.

that is not a good thing to do and I am wondering if that is how you read scripture at this point


Thanks for the sparring, it is interesting and I pray that God will allow it to help me grow

you basically misapprehended most of what I posted and twisted what I said. not sure that will help anyone
 

MJ1

Member
Jan 22, 2019
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Hey! stonesoffire... : )

The Lord therefore uses sickness, even to death; in order to chasten us so that we should not be condemned with the world.
Sickness, and even death is the result of evil. God actually has a purpose for evil, He uses evil and sickness to bring about His glory. God’s glory exceeds the importance of whether we are condemned or not.

More specifically, God is holy, He cannot do evil, and He cannot look upon evil positively. (Note: I did not say that God cannot look at evil, but that God cannot look upon evil positively). Furthermore, God is incapable of doing anything evil. Moreover, God accepts the responsibility and the existence of evil; however, He is not the author of evil. God is content in accepting the responsibility for evils existence and its actions.

Sickness is the result of our fallen state, it is a consequence of sin. If sin had not entered the world through Adam and Eve, there would have been no sickness.

Sickness is not a curse, it is the result of a curse. God did not curse sickness, He cursed the serpent.

“So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed … (Genesis 3:14)

Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3)

As you might see, this man was likely no more sinful than we have all been. However, God allowed the sickness, to bring about His glory
 
Jan 12, 2019
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superior attitude anyone?

I can see why you have trouble with my posts. you miss the intent of what people are saying here

not one person said that they are against healing, so why do you?

rhetorical question
Not every post I make here is about you dear :) I was referring to maxwel who said

Quite true, we can often disagree over minor doctrines and be quite gracious about it.

However, there ARE such things as heresies...
and this is one of them.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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Our words can not only change our future. They can change our past as well!

The Lord brought time into existence. He can also stop it & bring it out of existence.

Past sins we've committed, when wiped out, change our past & future.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(NOTE: If you will CONFESS Jesus is Lord with your mouth & believe he rose from the dead)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(NOTE: Our acknowledgement of God & our sin CONFESSION leads to salvation & our belief in the resurrection leads to righteousness)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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This is not an evil doctrine, or that of devils, nor is it a form of witchcraft, and neither did I twist what it said. I simply extrapolated the words that reveal the law itself and how it works.
Good explanation. Pity we are swimming against the tide. Its far easier to say thy sins are forgiven, rather than rise, take up your bed, and walk.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Good explanation. Pity we are swimming against the tide. Its far easier to say thy sins are forgiven, rather than rise, take up your bed, and walk.
True, because one you don't have to see any natural manifestation, where the other you do.
One has a FORM of godliness, but denies the power there of, while the other walks in the power of God.
I watch those who cannot receive this simple truth, do the very thing they accuse me of doing. That being, twisting and perverting the word of God.
And because they miss such a foundational truth, which is not only essential for healing and deliverance, but answered prayers and salvation as well, I can't help but see them in the light of the scripture in John.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I watch those who cannot receive this simple truth, do the very thing they accuse me of doing. That being, twisting and perverting the word of God.
To me, in this thread, its most interesting to hear accusations of twisting/perverting the word of God/heresies when others disagree with your interpretation and beliefs.

What happen to "agree to disagree"? :)
 

MJ1

Member
Jan 22, 2019
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"MJ1, post: 3852075, member: 280234"]
well you are very funny since I never said anything different. you butted into an exchange I had with another poster and told me you could not agree with me over something I said to him. you reveal nothing other than your now somewhat sketchy ability to follow a conversation.

Which post was that I will review it.

"You butted in" – My apologies, hopefully you will excuse me. It’s just that I thought this was an open forum, which we all could agree, disagree, share, grow and learn from. Would you prefer I make no comment if I see something that you’ve posted that I might be questioning?

you do not present an accurate and biblical presentation of salvation. we are not saved by God's holiness, rather we are saved by the blood of His Son.

Did I say we are saved by God’s holiness? I think I said something to the effect that we are saved by the redemptive power of Jesus blood, so we would be in agreement on this. I’d have to go back and check my comments. Unfortunately, this site doesn’t allow us to change comment after a period of time.

the sacrificial system of the OT was an illustration of what was to come..which, if you knew, would help you to understand why I mentioned the High Priest. you do not approach God because of His holiness...you can only come through the blood of Christ
the Holy Spirit is within each believer,

The sacrificial system of the OT is a poor illustration of what was to come. Jesus our High Priest does not wear a rope around his ankle. In the OT the High Priest could be struck dead if God found some uncleanliness in Him. In Christ there is not uncleanliness.

you have some strange notions and I am not going to debate with you over them

Not at all, I welcome debate if it is done in the Spirit of our Lord. In some ways I think my Dad encourages it.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

although I would be curious as to where you received this teaching regarding holiness. you sound indoctrinated to me and not thinking through what you are writing since at one point you agree with what I stated and then flip it again

I will have to review it to see if their is a duplicity of thought.

make up your mind. either sin separates us from God or it doesn't. this is what you are saying here. 1. sin in itself did not separate me from God. then you go on to say 2. however sin separates us from God in that He will have nothing to do with it

Maybe I need to clarify what I'm trying to say: sin alone is not the deciding factor if we are separated from God, because sin in itself does not have that power, it's a product of evil. It is God who decides if we will be separated from Him. God cannot look upon evil positively, but to say He has nothing to do with sin would be wrong because He uses the product of sin (i.e. sickness...etc.) to bring about His glory.

Having been saved and given the Holy Spirit, is it possible for me to sin? - Yes.

This is why are to: “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed”. James 5:16

Therefore, even if it is possible for me to transgress, with the Holy Spirit indwelling in me, God has not separated Himself from me. Because sin in itself does not have the power to bring about that separation.

Many believe that this is what Paul was referring to in Roman 7:19-25.

My mistake may have been using Old Testament scripture in reference to sin, because the Holy Spirit did not take up a permanent indwelling as it does with believers in the New Testament. It sometimes would come upon people (i.e. Saul) but would leave due to their disobedience. Whereas, today it dwells within us and is not taken away even when we sin. We were sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14)

There is only one way that we could lose the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6)

I hope you see that you actually contradict yourself in whatever type of reasoning you are engaged in

Not certain if I did, will have to review, but it is possible.

basically, God is holy in all His attributes. I did say God is holy in all that He does. you are adding to what I said and it changes what I said quite significantly.

I still think His holiness is a separate attribute, and each attribute of God has its own merit. But, would agree that God is holy in all He does.

that is not a good thing to do and I am wondering if that is how you read scripture at this point

I guess only God knows that, but I trust Him to guide me through my interpretation, to correct and rebuke me as I continue to grow. .
 

KelbyofGod

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Oct 8, 2017
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Or take Trophimus, who no doubt was prayed over by the apostle Paul and yet was still left sick in Miletum as Paul continued on to the next town. What this means is that even with the gift of healing in operation, not everyone gets healed or kept from a sickly death.

.....

Phil 2:27 "For indeed he was sick, nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, least I should have sorrow upon sorrow."

2 Tim 4:20 "Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."

1 Tim 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

1 Cor 11:29-32 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
Glf1,
THANK-YOU for posting this! I hope you'll forgive me for moving the last paragraph to the front.

You bring to light the error in at least the second of two main arguments that people post

Error #1 "If you believe God heals, that means you will never be sick"
Error #2 "If you believe God heals, that means you should be able to heal everyone"

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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you know, I'll say it again. I don't think you quite get what I am saying. also think that is fine at this point
Perhaps I do not. (and that's not some kind of slam against you)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Glf1,
THANK-YOU for posting this! I hope you'll forgive me for moving the last paragraph to the front.

You bring to light the error in at least the second of two main arguments that people post

Error #1 "If you believe God heals, that means you will never be sick"
Error #2 "If you believe God heals, that means you should be able to heal everyone"

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Actually I don’t see anyone stating those 2 arguments.

We are debating whether Jesus's finished work on the cross also included physical healing. :)
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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Actually I don’t see anyone stating those 2 arguments.

We are debating whether Jesus's finished work on the cross also included physical healing. :)
Well, in Acts there appear to be several healings in the name of Jesus. But I don't know if that was simply by faith in his name or because it was paid for by the cross.

I really don't know what people think that phrase means "paid for by the cross".

What do you think it means if something is paid for by the cross? Do you think it means we have a right to ask for it? Or that we should instantly have it? Or something else that can be clearly explained?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby