Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

[Hevosmies]

proof of eternal security 100% irrefutable:


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I highlighted the word "I know them" because Jesus KNOWS the sheep. Now this proves sheep will always be sheep:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There Jesus casts folks into hell and He NEVER knew them, not used to know them but the sheep evolutionized into goats!

 

[Grandpa]

Now if only we had free will to begin with!

If you believe in foreknowledge, you belive in predestination.

WHY would God bother saving people who He knows would go APOSTATE? In the arminian VIEW?

Arminianism is RIDICILOUS.

Here is some good comedy:

I think that was the music to Hogans Heroes...

That was a goofy show. But somehow fitting.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Is John 15:2 the same as John 15:6?


John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



In John 15:2, Jesus speaks of the branch (believer) who is in Him.

In John 15:6, Jesus speaks of a man (unbeliever) who is not in Him.


In John 15:2, the believer in Christ who does not bear fruit is lifted up and supported in order that he/she may bear fruit. Again, the words "he taketh away" are the Greek word airō which means to raise up, elevate.

In John 15:6, there is no fruit in evidence because the unbeliever is not in Christ.


The fruit produced in the life of the believer is a by-product of abiding in the Vine. It is the Vine which produces the fruit in the branch ... the branch does not produce the fruit. The branch "bears" the fruit. The branch holds the fruit out for others to see.


I, as a believer, do not "produce" fruit in my life. I only hold out and share with others the fruit of the Vine. The Lord Jesus Christ, as the Vine, produces the fruit.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Adstar]

Jesus is the Vine.. Again Jesus is the Vine

John 15: KJV
5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

We become brances when we are grafted into Jesus by Beliving Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation we must abide. Abide here means stay with Him, Keep believing Him, Keep trusting in that Atonement He secured for our salvation.. Once we cease to believe Jesus.. Once we no longer trust that the Atonement He secured saves us from that Lake of Fire then we are cut off....

John 15: KJV
2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

The Branches are In Jesus.. They are not unbelievers.. They are Believers.. But if they do not abide in Faith they will be taken away.. Cut off.. Once again to be taken away from the Vine ( Jesus) You must at one stage have been In the Vine....

Romans 11: KJV
19 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. {20} Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: {21} For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. {22} Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

There it is.. Clear as day, if we do not abide ( continue to stay ) in Faith, in the Goodness of the message of Jesus and His Atonement by which we Stand.. Then we shall be cut off. Paul was giving a clear warning to saved people who where grafted into the Vine of Jesus to perservere in Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement of the LORD otherwise they would get cut off ...

 

[tanakh]

If our salvation is not permanent why bother with Christianity? There are plenty of other Religions and Philosophies where our
eternal security depends on our works and moral performance.

 

[Chester]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

The Bible is quite clear: those who believe are saved; those who do not believe are not saved! Quite simple. Why add doctrine of OSAS or Non-OSAS to the Bible: just take it for what it says. . .

 

[Chester]

Now if only we had free will to begin with!

If you believe in foreknowledge, you belive in predestination.

WHY would God bother saving people who He knows would go APOSTATE? In the arminian VIEW?

Arminianism is RIDICILOUS.

Here is some good comedy:

Really funny, I guess so . . .? I don't care much about "Calvinism" or "Arminianism", but I believe in God's foreknowledge, and I believe everything the Bible says about predestination, and I believe that everyone who chooses to believe in the finished complete work of Jesus' at Calvary will be saved by God's grace. Those who do not believe will be damned.

I know that I have chosen to believe, but I know that I also have the moral capability that tomorrow I could chose to reject Jesus.

To me that is not too difficult to understand.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"

this is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?


but this has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation to a saved believer


and MUCH to do with two separate types of men in the same congregation of "believers" (in Him)

 

[Grandpa]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"

this is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?


but this has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation to a saved believer


and MUCH to do with two separate types of men in the same congregation of "believers" (in Him)

That's what I was wondering when I asked how can a branch in Christ NOT bear fruit??

I understand how a branch that does not abide in Christ does not bear fruit. That is pretty obvious. That verse later on says Without Me you can do nothing.

 

[Bingo]

"When something can't be explained simply,
the subject may not be understood well enough..
this may occur when someone is out of their element.
In Spirit and Truth signifies an absolute."
'Praise God'

 

[Chester]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"

this is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?


but this has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation to a saved believer


and MUCH to do with two separate types of men in the same congregation of "believers" (in Him)

So if someone was a branch that bore fruit, and then that person no longer is abiding in Christ, is he still a fruitful branch?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

So if someone was a branch that bore fruit, and then that person no longer is abiding in Christ, is he still a fruitful branch?

not all "in Him"

"abide in Him"


3306. menó ►
Strong's Concordance
menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Definition: to stay, abide, remain
Usage: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.


1 john 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



.... God does not need to SEE FRUIT to learn that our faith is genuine....

If our heart is sincere He placed it in us by grace through faith... an enduring faith

and He abides in us -> fruit is evidence to man....

but to God it is expected harvest...

by His power in us....

 

[NoNameMcgee]

(sorry if it didnt sound like i answered you clearly)


if someone does not abide (stay / remain) in Christ

they were never a fruitful branch... even if they appeared to be before man

like judas

and any other tare


unless they were indeed a true son... like peter who denied Jesus multiple times
or the prodigal son who left and was perceived as dead before his return



Good fruit is the yield of Gods works in us.....

many will say "lord lord have i not done many wonderful works in your name"

but he never knew them.... (does not abide in them)

john 6 :37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(nothing to do with maintaining some number of fruit)

 

[Chester]

(sorry if it didnt sound like i answered you clearly)


if someone does not abide (stay / remain) in Christ

they were never a fruitful branch... even if they appeared to be before man

Sorry, the text of John 15 does not say that. If it does, please show me where?

It seems to me like you assume OSAS, and them superimpose this understanding on the passage. Just let the text say what it says.

 

[Chester]

proof of eternal security 100% irrefutable:


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I highlighted the word "I know them" because Jesus KNOWS the sheep. Now this proves sheep will always be sheep:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There Jesus casts folks into hell and He NEVER knew them, not used to know them but the sheep evolutionized into goats!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Sorry, the text of John 15 does not say that. If it does, please show me where?

It seems to me like you assume OSAS, and them superimpose this understanding on the passage. Just let the text say what it says.

😧
I did... you just don't like it.

 

[Chester]

I am OK if you want to prove eternal security 100% irrefutable - but please prove it before you make the statement . . .

From the passage in John 10 you give we have this:

These sheep are hearing Jesus' voice and He is knowing them and they are following him. Now if you take that statement of verse 27 you have a situation where that sheep can know he is saved and has eternal life - call it "eternal security" if you like.

The sheep of which verse 27 is true will never perish and no man will pluck it out of the Father's hand - yes and amen!


I have no idea how you get that because Jesus "knows them" that this means "sheep will always be sheep". The fact of the matter is that in real life sheep might not always be sheep. If the sheep dies, its body rots, and then the nutrients are absorbed into the nearby grass, and then if a goat may eat the "sheep" -- and now your sheep is a goat!

Those verses do not say that a sheep is always a sheep. They simply say what these sheep are doing and thus what their eternal security is.

So what if you have a person who is not hearing Jesus' voice, is not known by Jesus, and is not following Jesus? Is he/she a sheep that has eternal life. This verse surely does not say so. You will have to go elsewhere to prove that idea. (and I don't think you will find that idea in the Bible).

Sorry: Go to entry #35 to see the person I was answering

 

[Chester]

😧
I did... you just don't like it.

OK, I looked again (#32,33) -- I didn't see it! Or, did I miss something?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

OK, I looked again (#32,33) -- I didn't see it! Or, did I miss something?

the OP for some reason thought John 15 was speaking of saved believers losing salvation
it is not

i clearly explained what is truly being said

you don't like it and disagree


....you say im super imposing.... and by the logic of your last post.....


if i eat a slice of pizza

i just made some flour a human
tomatos a human
some spices a human
cheese a human

and some pepperoni (most likely a pig🤔).... a human

 

[Chester]

the OP for some reason thought John 15 was speaking of saved believers losing salvation
it is not

i clearly explained what is truly being said

you don't like it and disagree


....you say im super imposing.... and by the logic of your last post.....


if i eat a slice of pizza

i just made some flour a human
tomatos a human
some spices a human
cheese a human

and some pepperoni (most likely a pig🤔).... a human

You are right that I disagree but I sure like your humor . . . LOL!