Not By Works

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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Not hardly.......I may be on a different time frame, but will have no problem lighting you up when you post scripture twisted out of context HAHA
Gee,,,what a relief!
I don't know if I could stand not being told I twist scripture at least 5X a day.
BTW,,, Aussie is on the other side of the world. Everything is the opposite there...
Maybe you'll start understanding scripture the right way by thinking the opposite!
yeah.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,822
8,596
113
Let’s look at the words Jesus used.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


One of His sheep who becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance.


Do you know what a sinner is?


Do the lost need salvation?




JPT

That's great. But it doesn't answer my question.

Here we have a sheep, equating to a born again Child of God, getting "lost". Are you saying that being "lost" here means the born again Child of God is no longer saved?

And if so, are you saying the Born again Child of God can be saved, get "lost" and no longer be saved, then get saved again, and apparently repeat this process over and over?

You also have NOT answered how all this can be relative to your favorite verses,
Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
Hi gb9,

Is your definition of sin, knowing to do good and not doing so, or whatever is not of faith is sin?

This is very subjective definition of sin. If my idea of good is being kind to people, I do not sin when I am kind to all.
If obeying faith, if being kind to everyone, I do not sin.

A guilty conscience could invent versions that say, just thinking about someone in a negative light is sin, or being
hungry, or thirsty, or aspiring for something is not of faith, so sin, I can be overcome with self condemnation.

So this kind of religion, would have some living in liberty while others doomed to hell and living in an OCD hell.

God was specific about sin so as to free people and help them understand what it means to walk in His ways.
But man wants to reject themselves and deny God could love them by inventing more reasons to say they
fail, because being acceptable would be too much to hope for.

If a Christian tells a lie, has a heart attack and immediately dies, is that Christian lost?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
First off: I though you put me on ignore? :LOL:



Never once said it was okay. You're back to putting words in other's mouths I see.



Yep. Prove me wrong.



How likely are you to sin every day? ;)



Are you more saved than others?



Self-righteousness is serious. And it has infected this thread.
1. I don't put persons on IGNORE. I'm not a kindergartener and can take care of myself.

2. You DID say sinning is OK. Here it is:

I posted what OSAS means...which is this:
OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).


This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.

To which YOU replied this:
Darn tootin' I believe it. :)
(see post no. 89,232 for your response.)

IOW, You ARE saying that one could sin all he wants to and still be saved....


3. Your next three statement are rather silly so I won't take time to answer them.
They just prove your preoccupation with sin.
I don't know why....
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Hi guys,
Please could some provide a dictionary of terms.

You cannot have meaningful conversation if sin is
1. Having a body
2. Not doing something you think you should do, or doing something not based on faith
3. Doing a sinful action as defined by Gods moral law

These different position lead to different theologies.

People with honesty, integrity and real faith can shout at each other how deceptive the other is
because they are lying and slandering the others faith, and be speaking the truth, because within
their own belief system they are speaking the truth.

Jesus called us to love our enemies, because often our enemy is the same as us, with a slight
variation.

One member claimed I did not understand anything they said.
They were expressing a feeling, and probably I had missed their intent, but then again one can think
you are saying one thing, but actually are saying something very different.
Context matter, like the definitions of sin, which lead to differences of belief, without an actual
dishonesty or even evil or bad intent. Trouble is God will find us guilty of real sin as He defines it, and
unless we know what this is, we cannot walk in His ways or know His will.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
If a Christian tells a lie, has a heart attack and immediately dies, is that Christian lost?
No. Grace covers over a multitude of sins.

This logic is like saying an argument between a married couple means they are divorced? No.
But it could lead to a divorce.

Like a person comes to faith, follows Jesus, but starts to hate Gods law.
They sow to the flesh and it consumes them until there is no faith or insight into God left.

Sin has consumed them, until only death remains.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
6,276
113
Hi guys,
Please could some provide a dictionary of terms.

You cannot have meaningful conversation if sin is
1. Having a body
2. Not doing something you think you should do, or doing something not based on faith
3. Doing a sinful action as defined by Gods moral law

These different position lead to different theologies.

People with honesty, integrity and real faith can shout at each other how deceptive the other is
because they are lying and slandering the others faith, and be speaking the truth, because within
their own belief system they are speaking the truth.

Jesus called us to love our enemies, because often our enemy is the same as us, with a slight
variation.

One member claimed I did not understand anything they said.
They were expressing a feeling, and probably I had missed their intent, but then again one can think
you are saying one thing, but actually are saying something very different.
Context matter, like the definitions of sin, which lead to differences of belief, without an actual
dishonesty or even evil or bad intent. Trouble is God will find us guilty of real sin as He defines it, and
unless we know what this is, we cannot walk in His ways or know His will.
I have given you the definition of sin, many times, you reject it.

that is a you problem. giving you more information is a waste of time when you reject what you already have been given
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
1. I don't put persons on IGNORE. I'm not a kindergartener and can take care of myself.
Post 88,962

Right.
It's tough to hear the truth.
To the iggy bin you go...
2. You DID say sinning is OK. Here it is:

I posted what OSAS means...which is this:
OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).


This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.

To which YOU replied this:
Darn tootin' I believe it. :)
(see post no. 89,232 for your response.)

IOW, You ARE saying that one could sin all he wants to and still be saved....
I NEVER said it was "okay" I said we (including you) WILL continue to sin, and that though we do, we remain saved because salvation is a gift and grace is unmerited. PERIOD.

It is tiring the way you try to make people say things they did not actually say.

They just prove your preoccupation with sin.
I don't know why....
Again, to challenge the self-righteous such as yourself.
 
Feb 24, 2019
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18
Now THANK YOU, someone with an open mind. I do not mind if we disagree, but people the do not know ditty about wait we TEACH and BELIEVE, and then they insist that we teach that one you are saved you do not THINK it does not matter if you want to disobey, is a bunch of rotten eggs. I have been called all kinds of OFFENSIVE NAMES, and told that GOD's Curse is on me, simply because I believe in OSAS, and that PERSON has the ERRONEOUS MEANING FOR THAT TERM.

OBEDIENCE is every bit a part of OSAS beliefs in EVERY Church that I have been part of. HOWEVER, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, it is PART OF LOVE, and Sanctification. We have been FALSELY ACCUSED of that LIE ever sense I was Born Again the last week of 1977, and PROBABLY FOR DECADES BEFORE THAT.

The Biggest Mistake is that Armenians have made, is ASSUMING that SANCTIFICATION and SALVATION are the same thing. They are a lifetime of Miles apart. Salvation of the Human Spirit happens the moment the HOLY SPIRIT comes in, and it is a FREE GIFT of GOD. While Sanctification is a RESULT OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, where we learn to Walk like Christ, and to LOVE GOD ENOUGH TO OBEY HIM. And that process will not be complete until we are at the RESURRECTION. THAT IS WHAT OSAS HAS BEEN in every Church I have been involved in, and WE MOVED A LOT WHEN WE WERE YOUNGER. Those that think they are OSAS and NEVER TRY TO OBEY HIM, are FALSE Brethren, and those are the ones that FALL AWAY, which means they NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN.

If you doubt that SALVATION is a Free Gift of GOD, and it happens the moment the Holy Spirit comes into our HEART, these verses should convince you:


Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


And the BIGGEST REASON I absolutely wholeheartedly believe in OSAS is this portion of Scripture, among others:


John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them [equals Born Again], and they follow Me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perishever! No one will snatch them out of My hand {not even self}.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

30 The Father and I are one.”
I

Iwould agree that his sheep, hear, and follow...if they don't ....not his sheep

I am curious though of the difference between sanctification and salvation in the way that you described it....any scriptures you could give???

i grew up listening to Lester Roloff, Maze Jackson, Olver b Greene (not that I agreed with them on everything) they just seemed a whole lot more conservative (for lack of a better word) than alot of the preachers I hear today

would you say you lean more towards the way they preached.....just curious

i especially loved hearing Lester and Maze
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi guys,
Please could some provide a dictionary of terms.

You cannot have meaningful conversation if sin is
1. Having a body
2. Not doing something you think you should do, or doing something not based on faith
3. Doing a sinful action as defined by Gods moral law

These different position lead to different theologies.

People with honesty, integrity and real faith can shout at each other how deceptive the other is
because they are lying and slandering the others faith, and be speaking the truth, because within
their own belief system they are speaking the truth.

Jesus called us to love our enemies, because often our enemy is the same as us, with a slight
variation.

One member claimed I did not understand anything they said.
They were expressing a feeling, and probably I had missed their intent, but then again one can think
you are saying one thing, but actually are saying something very different.
Context matter, like the definitions of sin, which lead to differences of belief, without an actual
dishonesty or even evil or bad intent. Trouble is God will find us guilty of real sin as He defines it, and
unless we know what this is, we cannot walk in His ways or know His will.
Hey
Lets worry about gods defenition of sin, and not mans, or what other people think

Sin comes from the flesh, what does this mean, understand this concept and you understand gods defenition of sin.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
1. I don't put persons on IGNORE. I'm not a kindergartener and can take care of myself.

2. You DID say sinning is OK. Here it is:

I posted what OSAS means...which is this:
OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).


This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.

To which YOU replied this:
Darn tootin' I believe it. :)
(see post no. 89,232 for your response.)

IOW, You ARE saying that one could sin all he wants to and still be saved....


3. Your next three statement are rather silly so I won't take time to answer them.
They just prove your preoccupation with sin.
I don't know why....
Good morning Grace101,

As of this morning, Bud admitted being alive is sinful.
So there is nothing to be gained by doing anything "good" or "righteous", and nothing can be separated
as evil or not evil, because to him all are the same.

So the worst excesses of man are as good as the best loving societies possible or another way,
God should not have judged Nineveh, because it was as evil after they repented as before.

Moral relativism exists where you have no morals or all morals are equally evil.
I am sure these guys are totally unaware that lawlessness can be expressed in more than one way,
and the king of lawlessness is not a place a believer should ever go.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
As of this morning, Bud admitted being alive is sinful.
We are in the flesh. We still have the "Old Man", which means we will still sin. Yet, we have been declared holy, righteous, perfect, and sinless by God.

How can that be?

The two natures. The "Flesh" and our New Nature in Christ. That's also why the Bible says a believer does not sin, nor can he. That is speaking of the New Nature. If not, none of us would be saved.

Get it now, Chubby Checker?
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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I think Jesus makes the point very well....he said he was lost, even though he was a son he was lost.......and he said he was dead........showing us that backslid prodigals must come to themselves and come home......this son didn't wander away like the sheep....in his rebellion he walked away.....the father didn't stop him.......the father never went and got him from hogpen "he came to himself and said I will go to father"

Yes sir.


Those who are lost must repent and return to God to be reconciled.


He will rejoice and welcome back those who do.


He loves us dearly, but won’t force us to stay with Him.




JPT
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Hey
Lets worry about gods defenition of sin, and not mans, or what other people think
Sin comes from the flesh, what does this mean, understand this concept and you understand gods defenition of sin.
Sin comes from the flesh

Odd. Sin comes from us. I am a sinner, not my body. If I am not a sinner, repentance is irrelevant, because
I do not need to repent, just to be set free from my evil flesh.

Is this the faith you believe in?
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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yes, the lost need salvation . ( you changed the question ).

but, the Shepherds sheep are the Shepherds sheep, based on their belief in the Shepherd as THE Shepherd.

a sheep is a sheep , a goat is a goat.
the goat does not listen to nor care about what the Shepherd says.

a sheep can get lost, wonder off, but is still a sheep.

you can spin and twist all you want, but MY SHEEP still means exactly what the Shepherd said- His sheep. while lost , still His sheep.

There are no goats mentioned in this parable.


His sheep who wander away and become lost, need salvation.


They need to repent, just like they did to get saved in the first place.





JPT
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Sin comes from the flesh

Odd. Sin comes from us. I am a sinner, not my body. If I am not a sinner, repentance is irrelevant, because
I do not need to repent, just to be set free from my evil flesh.

Is this the faith you believe in?
If sin comes only from the flesh, and we are bound to sin because we are human, why did Jesus call us
to repent.

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Matt 4:17

Was Jesus lying? If Jesus was speaking the truth, we are responsible for our sin, and can do something
about it.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock!
(Zechariah 11:17)
I AM the Good Shepherd
(John 10:11)
For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search My sheep, and seek them out.
As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out My sheep,
and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
(Ezekiel 34:11-12)
lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
(Matthew 28:20)
And He will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed, swiftly
(Isaiah 5:26)
When He has brought out all His own, He goes on ahead of them, and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.
(John 10:4-5)
what does it say?
"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"
that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim
(Romans 10:8)


Yes, those who wander away and become lost must repent and return.




JPT