Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

I agree. I also speak two languages and have bibles in both!

They say the same thing, thats why I never bothered and never will bother to study "the greek".
First because there is more than one greek text, SECOND because just take a look at the scholars, they know the greek, and STILL DISAGREE!

I can find you a greek scholar who argues for and against baptismal regeneration, BOTH using "the greek" to prove their point. Its a useless skill for a regular Christian, imo!

It is not the skill that is useless, it is the integrity that is missing among some bible scholars, personal bias and agendas, it is high stakes when truth and false dogma are at stake.

Take a look at how tenses in Greek have been corrupted in writings to meet a false "salvation can be lost agenda."

There are plenty of writers that have done this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Abraham was first to be circumcised and that was the beginning of works.

No. Read 1 John 3:12 [blb] - "not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his works were evil, but those of his brother, righteous."

 

[YourTruthGod]

No. Read 1 John 3:12 [blb] - "not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his works were evil, but those of his brother, righteous."

I am talking about works of the law. It is what Paul speaks of when he says 'not of works'.

 

[VCO]

Of course James heard of the false doctrine of faith alone, or he would not have said:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

There is not a wrong motive to obey Jesus.

I heard a Baptist Missionary one time YEARS AGO, in his closing remarks, said, "The reason that I serve the LORD on the Mission Field, is because I want the BIGGEST MANSION ON THE STREET OF GOLD." HE GREED WILL NOT SUCCEED, and he will get NOTHING. So what are You going to do, shout to HIM, "YOU OWE ME LORD." GOOD LUCK WITH THAT APPROACH. The only PURE MOTIVE IS LOVE.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 (HCSB)
1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Better to draw near in obedience than to offer the sacrifice as fools do, for they ignorantly do wrong.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I heard a Baptist Missionary one time YEARS AGO, in his closing remarks, said, "The reason that I serve the LORD on the Mission Field, is because I want the BIGGEST MANSION ON THE STREET OF GOLD." HE GREED WILL NOT SUCCEED, and he will get NOTHING. So what are You going to do, shout to HIM, "YOU OWE ME LORD." GOOD LUCK WITH THAT APPROACH. The only PURE MOTIVE IS LOVE.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 (HCSB)
1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Better to draw near in obedience than to offer the sacrifice as fools do, for they ignorantly do wrong.

Isn't the biggest mansion in heaven God's house?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The Jews had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering blood---God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering but not really be sorry for their sins; that made the righteous blood offering more like a bloody throw away rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

The Jews used to have to give blood offerings for their sins---so that they could make themselves righteous before God.

God did NOT like it that the Jews would sin, give a blood sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins, their sins that they kept doing.

Those good animal blood offerings for sins that THEY WERE NOT SORRY FOR became as offerings of menstrual blood offerings on rags that a woman throws away.. Read Isaiah 1

This is why I don't agree with only reading the English Bible because the Hebrew is creating a different picture of the blood, and by not studying the original Bible we will all give you a high five for making your own assumptions.

The blood of the filthy rags that are mentioned in Isaiah was never animal blood but it was human blood. The filthy rags were dirty and there is only one that can clean it again with His blood. The blood mentioned here was menstrual blood and the rags was the cloth they used in Biblical times.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is not the skill that is useless, it is the integrity that is missing among some bible scholars, personal bias and agendas, it is high stakes when truth and false dogma are at stake.

Take a look at how tenses in Greek have been corrupted in writings to meet a false "salvation can be lost agenda."

There are plenty of writers that have done this.

Amen.....exactly why God inspired the Koine Greek and then killed the language...so fools, liars, false teachers and deceivers cannot CHANGE what it means......one must be dense or totally dishonest to agrue or disagree that the Greek sets the standard for what the bible (N.T.) actually teaches.....Greek verb tense absolutely supports eternal security and there are nuances that ENGLISH cannot even come close to touching and or explaining.....

 

[dcontroversal]

This is why I don't agree with only reading the English Bible because the Hebrew is creating a different picture of the blood, and by not studying the original Bible we will all give you a high five for making your own assumptions.

The blood of the filthy rags that are mentioned in Isaiah was never animal blood but it was human blood. The filthy rags were dirty and there is only one that can clean it again with His blood. The blood mentioned here was menstrual blood and the rags was the cloth they used in Biblical times.

Amen to that migo

 

[dcontroversal]

I heard a Baptist Missionary one time YEARS AGO, in his closing remarks, said, "The reason that I serve the LORD on the Mission Field, is because I want the BIGGEST MANSION ON THE STREET OF GOLD." HE GREED WILL NOT SUCCEED, and he will get NOTHING. So what are You going to do, shout to HIM, "YOU OWE ME LORD." GOOD LUCK WITH THAT APPROACH. The only PURE MOTIVE IS LOVE.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 (HCSB)
1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Better to draw near in obedience than to offer the sacrifice as fools do, for they ignorantly do wrong.

The funny truth....the "mansion" is actually the Greek for "dwelling places" In my Father's house are many DWELLING PLACES.........

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I heard a Baptist Missionary one time YEARS AGO, in his closing remarks, said, "The reason that I serve the LORD on the Mission Field, is because I want the BIGGEST MANSION ON THE STREET OF GOLD." HE GREED WILL NOT SUCCEED, and he will get NOTHING. So what are You going to do, shout to HIM, "YOU OWE ME LORD." GOOD LUCK WITH THAT APPROACH. The only PURE MOTIVE IS LOVE.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 (HCSB)
1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Better to draw near in obedience than to offer the sacrifice as fools do, for they ignorantly do wrong.

I am sure the missionary preacher was joking. He was making the point that Jesus rewards us
when we doing things for the Kingdom. I have always found this strange as our motivation is not
reward, but the Lord emphasises it, as a display of His encouragement and love.

Jesus says we should store up our treasure in heaven so equally it has to have meaning or else
where is the value in putting our treasure there. Perhaps it is being suggested that we actually
have no treasure in heaven so do not give away what you have on earth?

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:19-21

So here again we have mocking a biblical principle and teaching it is selfish to store up treasure
in heaven.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6

The verse often quoted is in regard to sinners who have not been forgiven and cleansed of their sins.
If our deeds in Christ are of no value, why would the Lord reward them?

Why is Paul describing the Lords people as Holy, blameless, pure

just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:25-27

Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

If these people are filthy rags then it makes a mockery of Pauls words describing them as becoming blameless and pure
without fault.

This is why those who hold Jesus cannot change us into this image live in unbelief and the promises do
not apply to them. No sinners enter heaven, only the washed and purified.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

There is not a wrong motive to obey Jesus.

This is an interesting point.
Paul talks about people who were preaching to get him further into trouble.
His conclusion was he did not mind, because Jesus was being preached.

Secondly when people talk about the wrong motives they often mean in a judgemental sense of another.
Paul simply says he does not even judge himself but on final day, God will reveal the motives of the heart.

So my position would be following Jesus is our goal because that is the way to life, and of eternal life.
What keeps us going is the love of Jesus and everything else will fall away, so why we initially start is
irrelevant, we finish because we desire to be like Him.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Abraham was first to be circumcised and that was the beginning of works.

Paul continues the theme to say we how have circumcised hearts in Christ, so what was started as a sign in
the flesh has continued in a spiritual way.

No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God
Rom 2:29

 

[dcontroversal]

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6

The verse often quoted is in regard to sinners who have not been forgiven and cleansed of their sins.
If our deeds in Christ are of no value, why would the Lord reward them?

Why is Paul describing the Lords people as Holy, blameless, pure

just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:25-27

Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

If these people are filthy rags then it makes a mockery of Pauls words describing them as becoming blameless and pure
without fault.

This is why those who hold Jesus cannot change us into this image live in unbelief and the promises do
not apply to them. No sinners enter heaven, only the washed and purified.

Peter said that God inspired HOLY MEN to pen the word, Isaiah included himself when he said ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS

Get your facts straight pal....

 

[mailmandan]

No. Read 1 John 3:12 [blb] - "not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his works were evil, but those of his brother, righteous."

Amen! It was it was by "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). His offering substantiated his faith (James 2:18). Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering demonstrated something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Roman 4 : What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

Why do you people insist on usinf James 2, a passage refuting CLAIMED faith, and ignore romans 4.

Abraham was saved decades before he offered his son. He was not saved when he offered up his son. All he did was PROVE his faith was real.

Proving your faiht is real is not EARNING SALVATION. It is WORKING out the SALVATION that is IN YOU.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham was first to be circumcised and that was the beginning of works.

What?????

Dude, you need to find a church, and I woudl recommend a real church

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course James heard of the false doctrine of faith alone, or he would not have said:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Um No

What did James say

What does it PROFIT a man if he CLAIMS to have faith (he never said they had faith he said the CLAIMED to have it) yet has no works. Can that CLAIMED faiht save them.

He was speaking of easy believism, People who BELIEVE jesus was real. But NEVER had faith in them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul says different:

Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them

Circumcision was the sign for the works of the law that justified one before God. That is what the purification works of the law did.

There was no law in Abrahams day

Circumcisiuon was a sign of the covenant between God and abraham that he would be the father of many nations. And he would also father one great nation. From whome the seed (messiah) would come, Not that he would be saved

Again, You need to find a church, You have either led yourself astray or been led astry by false teachers.

 

[mailmandan]

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.[/QUOTE] In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So as we can clearly see from scripture, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*