A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[stonesoffire]

Dcon, if you are applying the grace through Jesus NOW TO ALL MEN, I would agree. But, EG and I began this discussion or at some point got on a difference between old and New Testament prophets. So that statement if that's how you mean it has nothing to do with the discussion.

And frankly if no one has anything more on this subject, I was tired of it long ago.

But, just as others here, I won't back down on what I know to be true.

 

[stonesoffire]

Take it up with God Stones....Elijah was taken up into heaven.....and the context is the words of Jesus is a man ascending into heaven of his own will like Christ did in Acts...

Thanks for the advice.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[dcontroversal]

See now I posted scripture that refutes what you said Dcon, but did you acknowledge it?

You refuted nothing Stones.....try reading in context.....No man ASCENDING does not equal ELIJAH being taken UP by God.....and how do you explain Elijah in a glorified body on the mount of trasnfiguration....regardless...your whole premise is lacking....Those in the 11th chapter is Hebrews are SAVED and Of FAITH

 

[dcontroversal]

No.

Yes....it is ridiculous to say the O.T. saints were not saved/born again....David speaks of it in the present tense

 

[dcontroversal]

Dcon, if you are applying the grace through Jesus NOW TO ALL MEN, I would agree. But, EG and I began this discussion or at some point got on a difference between old and New Testament prophets. So that statement if that's how you mean it has nothing to do with the discussion.

And frankly if no one has anything more on this subject, I was tired of it long ago.

But, just as others here, I won't back down on what I know to be true.

Hahahaha what you ASSUME to be true....however the word refutes your view....The O.T. saints and Prophets were saved/born again, had the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM and penned the wlrd by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT....<---THE WORD STATES THIS VERBATIM......SO....whatever

 

[dcontroversal]

Well Roger, tell it all to Dcon for that is exactly what I've been saying. Fancy that that we could agree.

No....what we have disagreed on is that the O.T. prophets were not born again which IS SAVED....also...They had the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM AND PENNED THE WORD BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.....that is what I disagree with

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes....it is ridiculous to say the O.T. saints were not saved/born again....David speaks of it in the present tense

I posted what was said about David.

You know Dcon. Debating and arguing this way cannot be right. It drives people away rather than towards the Lord.

I'm done.

 

[dcontroversal]

Exactly...

Jesus spoke of the new birth (John 3:3, 5), which is a reference to regeneration.
And He indicated that Nicodemus should have known about the new birth (John 3:11), evidently from the teachings of the Old Testament (OT).
This proves that the concept of regeneration clearly does occur before the cross and that contradicts this argument.

Amen......charismatics go to seed on the Holy Spirit all the time while rejecting truth like this...Jesus fully expected him to understand the new birth of or from the SPIRIT BEFORE CHIRST RESURRECTED....plus...the PROPHETS HAD THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM and they penned the word dia the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.....the evidence supports my conclusion

 

[dcontroversal]

I posted what was said about David.

You know Dcon. Debating and arguing this way cannot be right. It drives people away rather than towards the Lord.

I'm done.

What is worse is rejecting obvious truth to fight against and dogmatically hold a false position Stones........

 

[VCO]

Makes me wonder if we will remember any of these things..lol

All the NEW things we will see there, it will be hard to think about the past. However, it says we will reign as Priests. Which I think we will be teachers of the Children born in the KINGDOM, and teaching them to appreciate what the LORD has provided for them, and offer a sincere prayer of thanksgiving. That will be challenging to teach those who have everything provided for them without any sickness, hardship, toil, and strife; yes that will be challenging.

I am looking forward to meeting Onesiphorus; because he encouraged Paul when he was in prison.

 

[VCO]

somebody has a good amount of patience

Not really, I am just BURNED OUT from hearing the SAME OLD ARGUMENTS and RESPONSES. Like I said before, I have not heard any new Heated Arguments in 20 Years or so.

 

[VCO]

Are you saying there was no grace prior to the coming of Jesus?

My understanding is the way that Abraham was SAVED, is the same way that HE saves everybody.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

I only know ONE way of SALVATION. Many people do not know that Jesus and the Apostles did not use the word CHURCH, he use the word ASSEMBLY. He called Old Testament TRUE BELIEVERS were the OLD TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY, and the Other Sheep He must GATHER are the NEW TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY, and I believe the TWO FOLDS will Become ONE FLOCK at the RAPTURE. Please Look It Up.

Exodus 33:13 (NKJV)
13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people."

Exodus 33:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth."
17 So the LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name."

 

[stonesoffire]

What is worse is rejecting obvious truth to fight against and dogmatically hold a false position Stones........]

Yes, I agree. So why do you do it? Why do you all reject the baptism of Holy Spirit with His gifts which Jesus Himself sent to the church? And why speak down to brothers and sisters in the body, all of us who Jesus died for? Why try to destroy something that's scripturally seen as from the Lord?

Don't bother answering because for the first time for me here I'm putting some here on ignore.

Unless I'm banned too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG
Prophesy is foretelling the future.

Stones
Most that I've heard has either been what's the will or purpose that God has for an individual or a fellowship.

I am speaking of prophecy in scriptur sis, Not hat someone today thinks it is.

EG

Can be? A prophesy is a prediction of a future event, A prophet is one who prophesies. When the event comes true then God is glorified Examples of OT prophets are daniel, Isaiah, Ezekial. Jeremiah.


Stones: I agreed with you, but I also said it can be a message of correction to a fellowship. In love though.
Another asked me to tell you that prophesy is also preaching. I can't copy and paste what was in a note. I don't know how to find it again except through the alert.

Prophesy is not teaching, Teaching is teaching,, Paul makes it clear. The gift of prophet is different than the gift of teaching.

As for speaking in someones life. Only if it can be verified. To many people think God told them to tell someone something and we come to find out it was not from God, the thing God supposedely said was either not true or could not be verified.

I gave you what the OT said concerning a prophet. The thing MUST COME TRUE.

EG
All prophets spoke as God spoke through them, s this is nothing new.

Stones
I'm not sure that OT prophets spoke from within. Holy Spirit rested upon them or anointed them to minister. But, they weren't born again. Prophets today are.

Abraham was counted as righteous He was saved, Dabid was called a man after Gods own heart. I am not sure where this thought comes from sis. A prophet spoke as God inspired him to speak or spoke through him, No prophet speaks from self. If he did, he is no prophet. How can a prophet foretell something and that thing be true unless it be from God.

EG
So the prophets who spoke of prophetic events spoke from within? And it was Not God speaking through them?

Stones: we aren't on the same page here so to speak EG.
1. I said I'm not sure if they spoke from within. I hear when I start to speak from within. Did they hear within? I don't know. But it was God speaking. How? ? I don't know. Don't misunderstand me please.
2. They weren't born again except through baptisms which they called being born again. They had multiple baptisms. Speaking here of the Jews and their way. My understanding is the anointing came down upon them. Like Jesus being anointed for ministry. But, Jesus is God Himself. They were not unless that little Gods thing is right. I don't know. I don't care.
3. Did the Jews have an experience of the new birth as we do? I don't know.
Don't you think that the born again experience and baptism of Holy Spirit which is permanent is different than the OT experiences of the prophets? They heard an outward voice. We, an inner. Holy Spirit did not remain upon them. IMV.

1. God spoke through them, How does not matter, it is no different than today that you can be assured
2. Baptisms? Again sis who is teaching you this stuff. A prophet had to be a man of God already his child BEFORE he could get the gift or speaking. No one did anything in the OT of any prophetic utterance unless they had the HS. The only difference between their salvation and ours is we KNOW what God did to save us, they just had faith God would save them, not knowing how.. Salvation has always been by grace through fatih. Never of works. The only baptism was the baptism of the children of levi in front of the children of Israel to show them who was priest (a symbol of what happens to us as NT priests)
3. The jews were saved by Grace, We are spiritually weashed (baptizm of the HS) and sealed (the anointing of the Holy Spirit) as the HS washes and comes into us. Thus we have available to us things they never did (except certain people) but our salvation is the same.

EG
Daniel and his 70 week prophesy was Daniels thoughts and not Gods?

Stones: not what I said or meant.

I gave you one example. All prophesy came the same way.

EG
Sis, you are worrying me, Is this what you are taught?

Stones: you need to read a little closer or ask me questions rather than assuming EG.

Well you still have not settled my worries.. If you explained more it did not help.

EG
Even in the OT. A prophet was considered a false prophet if the prophesy did not come true (the people were even told he was not from God)

Stones:
Ok

EG
duet 18: 22 -
Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him

It is scripture sis.

Stones:

Ok, I'll get my sword ready for cutting, and pile up the stones. 😋

Good

EG
When it is said, God will speak thoough you. I have witnessed that, But it was not a prophesy, it was sitting in front of a home group leading a bible study. I have even had prayers come out that I know was not from me, and I have talked to people. And had them speak to me about things going on in each others lives and sometimes, that too was not my own word, Or even could be a form of prophecy per say when you are shown a sin that person is doing and you have never even witnessed it. And you speak to them and they confess.

One thing about all of these things, It was all done in english..


Stones:
Of course. It would be. As I said before, only the gift of tongues that is equal to prophecy is in another tongue or language. And it has to be interpreted.

EG
Click to expand...
All tongues require interpretation

1 cor 14: 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them iswithout [b]significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a [c]foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are [d]zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the [e]edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Paul here says if one speaks in tongues, where it be for prophesying, teaching, Revelation or revelation, It must be interpreted. Otherwise it is spoken to as a foregner. And the context of this is speaking to the church for edifying the church

Again, If I am speaking in tongues, an dno one can understand me, it is meaningless for all who listen to what I say. Those are pauls words not mine,
I will just leave it there sis

Stones: I've already explained several times the difference between the two ways tongues is used.
If you have a point, then I missed it. Teaching by tongues? How? Revelation by tongues? Depends.

I am just giving you what the bible says, It does not matter what type of tongues sis.

Teaching by Tongues? That happened in acts 2
Revelation by tongues? God reveals a truth through tngues, which can be verified.
I am just going by what paul said

EG
My point was that my church did what you said we should do. And no foriegn language was used by anyone.

Stones: I sat in those meetings so I know what you are doing.

Yeah and what is that? You experienced what I as a teacher, or people who prayed experienced in the power of God?
Is this another mock? How else shouid I take this?

EG
As for eternal consequences. Unless a persons eternal life is in danger (which it never is otherwise it owuld not be eternal) or the decision a person needs to make concerning their eternal destiny, While it may have eternal consequences s for as blessings or something, You can not compar it to the eternal consequence of chosing the wrong gospel and ending up in hell. .

Stones: the true story of the woman with the gun? Praying in tongues kept the other woman from hell.

Lol.. Really?

A woman is saved from hell when she repents and comes to christ, someone praying in tongues can not save her, once again your worrying me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi TT,

It was last year, we were having heated debates on CC on tongues, so I was listening to some recordings of people on You Tube who were manifesting this "gift"

Having done some study in linguistics back in the day I found it interesting how deconstructed the utterances were. So I listened to a lot of different people, trying to hear similarities or differences in the utterances.

Then one day when praying, I stopped forming words, it was very strange. There is definitely an automaticity to it, like driving a car or reading you don't really think it just pours out. I can tell you it did not feel spiritual, I can see why the studies state it is a learned behaviour and completely the product of a heightened emotional state.
I really think it is just a release of endorphins, it was much like a runners high to me.

I rather go for a good run

All gifts should come natgurally, There are no instructions for how you allow God to work through you other than to just let him do his job. Also most gifts are just special abilies a person has.

We have people look for their gifts by doing different things, We have found that people who have a gift can do things by nature without any thinking, A natural teacher, A natural Prayer, A natural Evangelist, A natural (insert gift) will cme out. And the more you use it, the more it flows.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. Did I say anything about being lost? No, I did not. They went to Abraham's bosom. Trusting in blood sacrifice, circumcised physically.
2. Does Holy mean born again?

OT: no

שׁ


qôdesh


BDB Definition:


1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness


1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness


1a1) of God


1a2) of places


1a3) of things


1b) set-apartness, separateness

NT Holy : yes



G40


ἅγιος


hagios


Thayer Definition:


1) most holy thing, a saint


Part of Speech: adjective


A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from hagos (an awful thing) [compare G53, G2282]


I would need a scripture that tells me they were filled with Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Father.

And I'm just as surprised at you brother.

Sorry sis, in both OT and NT, the word holy means to be set apart.

People set apart and prophets were saved.

People of Isrel wqere also considered holy. But that did nto mean they were saved, Here is about the only difference.

Not one person (pther than Christ) has been “holy” because they were actually “holy” of their own work

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it isnt Dcon. No one entered heaven but Jesus came down. That's scripture. It is not a parable concerning the two compartments of hell. One for the wicked, the other for the righteous. Called Abraham's bosom. The place of rest for the children of Israel in Abraham.

We are the children of Abraham by faith.

Now they are in heaven for they were released by the Lord.

You all never heard this? Very surprised!

Both were just as saved sis.. Abraham was just as saved as I am. so was Moses, And daniel. And all prophets of God.

People who were not saved in ALL AGES go to hades, the fact they went to paradise (abrahams busom) makes them saved, We still go there today. The only difference is it is not where it used to be, God took it to heaven

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol...you did the same Dcon. No one can go to heaven unless born again of Spirit. That's the difference between old and new. The Jews called repentance and turning to God with a whole heart born again.

Jesus brought a new dispensation. Grace. The power of Holy Spirit within men. Putting to death the nature of sin by the Cross of Jesus. Raised up in ressurection power. The prophets of old plus the angels would love to know what we have been given. Or similar words.

I won't budge on this.

It does not make them LESS SAVED

What we have is the FULFILLMENT of the prophesies they were prophesying or hearing.. That is what they looked forward to. Not some manifestation of the spirit. They spoke prophecy, They were visited by God or angels personally. The people of your church who manifest gifts are not better than those people.. Those people saw things we can only imagine

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ahhh this is why....

The dispensation approach

??

I am a dispensational. Please be careful

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not water baptism.,

Holy Spirit baptism is the spiritual form of water baptism.

Cleansing, Immersed into Christ, His death and his body.

Not what you think it is sis.