Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

YourTruthGod

Active member
Mar 9, 2019
984
85
28
First of all, Scripture itself never names the writer of the Book we call John, so no, I am not separating John from the other apostles/disciples (and yes, I've heard all of the arguments as to why ppl believe it was John; I remain unconvinced by those arguments).

Second, I'm merely stating a fact, in my post, for the readers of this thread. The word "repent" is not found in that Book.
If the book of John started with writings from John the baptizer, and then later was joined with the apostle John, what does it matte when it is about the God breathed words?

Jesus, in the book of John says plainly to STOP SINNING.

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
Interesting isn't it, those who promote false doctrine seem to little to no compunction around making false allegations?

AND do not think it is wrong to form Contradictions with the Scriptures with their Theories and supposed Doctrines.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
You are going against me for saying we have to do what Jesus says to do to get saved and to stay saved.
A prime example of your dishonesty and fraudulent twist right here in this post....

No...we are against....

a. Your deceptive lie that one can do enough good works or righteous deeds to earn salvation.

b. God only saves those who love him and are obedient (works to earn)

You are such a deceiver.......
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
We have to believe that we have to obey him. Come to your senses.
"obeyed" [kjv] used here - Acts 5:36 [blb] -

"For before these days, Theudas rose up, affirming himself to be somebody--to whom a number of men, about four hundred, were joined--who was put to death, and all, as many as were persuaded by [/"obeyed" kjv - G3982 - epeithonto / peitho] him, were dispersed; and it came to nothing."

G3982 also found in:

--Matthew 27:43 "He [Jesus] trusted [in God]"

--Luke 16:31 "be persuaded"

--Acts 17:4 "believed"

--Acts 18:4 "persuaded"

--Acts 19:8 "persuading"

--Acts 28:23-24 "persuading"
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
If you do what is right, then God is your Father.
If you do what is evil, then Satan is your father.

It is a war between good and evil.

It is not love for men to commit adultery on their wives.
It is not love for women to commit adultery on their husbands.
It is not love to yourself to go with a prostitute.
It is not love to fornicate.
It is not love to get drunk, get on drugs, steal, bear false witness, etc.

It is love to repent of those things and do right.
It is not love to be prideful.
It is not love to not be forgiving.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.
So what....loving God is a process of growth and maturity...so is sanctification.....neither are automatic, but SALVATION by grace through FAITH ALONE is at the moment of belief.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
If the book of John started with writings from John the baptizer, and then later was joined with the apostle John, what does it matte when it is about the God breathed words?

Jesus, in the book of John says plainly to STOP SINNING.

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”
John the Baptist wrote nothing.....John the beloeved PENNED the entire letter......get your facts straight pal
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
First of all, Scripture itself never names the writer of the Book we call John, so no, I am not separating John from the other apostles/disciples (and yes, I've heard all of the arguments as to why ppl believe it was John; I remain unconvinced by those arguments).

Second, I'm merely stating a fact, in my post, for the readers of this thread. The word "repent" is not found in that Book.
...to this post, I had meant to add to my first point ^ the following words: "but that is beside the point" (it doesn't matter in the matter under discussion at present :D )

As to my second point, I was just telling why I had put that added comment in the brackets at the bottom of my previous post (i.e. for the readers of this thread).


YourTruthGod said:

Now you are separating John from the other apostles and disciples?
How so??
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
If the book of John started with writings from John the baptizer, and then later was joined with the apostle John, what does it matte when it is about the God breathed words?
Jesus, in the book of John says plainly to STOP SINNING.
John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”
Oh really? I thought Jesus had said "stop sinning in order to be SAVED" [not ;) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
If you do what is right, then God is your Father.
If you do what is evil, then Satan is your father.
It is a war between good and evil.
It is not love for men to commit adultery on their wives.
It is not love for women to commit adultery on their husbands.
It is not love to yourself to go with a prostitute.
It is not love to fornicate.
It is not love to get drunk, get on drugs, steal, bear false witness, etc.
It is love to repent of those things and do right.
It is not love to be prideful.
It is not love to not be forgiving.
Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.
Who are you saying is the "OUR" in that verse? People who ARE saved, or people who are YET TO BE saved in order to be saved?? (just asking, to be clear)

10 Henceforth be empowered in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the complete armor of God, for you to be able to stand against the schemes of the devil, 12 because to us the wrestling is not against blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
We can see and identify from these discussions who are the servants of God and who are not...who are righteous and who are wicked.

Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel unto all nations and teach them to OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Now those who adhere to the Lord's instructions are called "IDIOTIC", WORKS SALVATIONISTS, SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS, SALVATION LOSERS ETC. Insulting and mocking the idea of OBEDIENCE TO GOD as PART OF SALVATION. (See Hebrews 5:7-9)

They are calling evil GOOD and good EVIL. (Isaiah 5:20-24)

What is NOTICEABLE is how this people PROUDLY and CONTINUOUSLY calling themselves "SINNERS" even after claiming at the same time that they were BORN AGAIN of incorruptible seed.

(A double personality suffering from SCHIZOPHRENIA who love to DOUBLE TALK.)

I am not insulting or mocking anyone but just EXPOSING them to lead them to godly sorrow and somehow REPENT.

...When I say to a wicked man, ‘YOU WILL SURELY DIE,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to DISSUADE HIM FROM HIS EVIL WAYS in order TO SAVE HIS LIFE, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you ACCOUNTABLE for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do WARN the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, HE WILL SURELY LIVE because HE TOOK WARNING, and you will have saved yourself.” Ezekiel 3:18-21

... “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be SHAMEFULLY EXPOSED.” Revelation 16:15

...“YOU HAVE SAID HARSH THINGS AGAINST ME,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “THEY WILL BE MINE,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between THE RIGHTEOUS and THE WICKED, between THOSE WHO SERVE God and THOSE WHO DO NOT. Malachi 3:13-18

...I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in LEADING THE GENTILES TO OBEY GOD BY WHAT I HAVE SAID AND DONE—
Romans 15:18

What are you teaching?

Aren't you leading believers to DISOBEY GOD?

It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter NO ONE SHOULD WRONG HIS BROTHER OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIM. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. FOR GOD DID NOT CALL US TO BE IMPURE, but to LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, HE WHO REJECTS THIS INSTRUCTION DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

...See to it that you DO NOT REFUSE HIM who speaks. IF THEY DID NOT ESCAPE when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS US FROM HEAVEN? Hebrews 12:25

...The Spirit clearly says that in later times some WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Those who will ABANDON THEIR FAITH are those who CLAIM to have FAITH but without works...DEAD...NO POWER...

...“WHY do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and DO NOT DO WHAT I SAY? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and HEARS MY WORDS and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6:46-49

..."FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD."...James 2:26

...LET GOD BE TRUE...GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...(Romans 3:3-4 & Galatians 6:7-10)

If you really are obedient to God then teach us to OBEY GOD...what hinders you to do so and would rather attack those who continue in His teachings?


...On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:20-24

...Why do you call me "Lord, Lord", and do not do what I say?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Paul was worried that some of them may be deceived just like eve was deceived.

...But I AM AFRAID that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God. If they were deceived, why can't you?

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why refuse to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
... “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake [G1127 - gregoron] and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be SHAMEFULLY EXPOSED.” Revelation 16:15
[see also verse 16 along with this ^ ]

Here is the problem with using a "tribulation period [CONTEXT]" verse ^ and [incorrectly] applying it in a direct sense to "the Church which is His body"...

Take note of this SAME GREEK WORD used in a passage that IS addressed specifically to the Church which is His body (unlike the above-mentioned/quoted verse and passage/context):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm

"the One having died for us, so that [/in order that] whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] or we might sleep [same two Grk words as in verse 6!! see that verse!], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION' with] Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:10.
[note: not the "G3326 - meta - accompanying / 'with'" word, used of others elsewhere, like the "10 Virgins" parable, Matt25:10 (re: the "marriage FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK] and NOT re: the "MARRIAGE" itself!)]

The problem is, at least with some (not saying YOU), is that they do not believe that Paul's epistles are the word of the Lord.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
You try to lump me with them because I preach that nowadays tongues is false.
How about you get more in the scriptures and see that I rebuke like the Bible says to do.
How about you get more in the scriptures that say to 'contend' for the faith?
Hi YTG,

God bless you.
I am not lumping you in with anyone, I am merely sharing how others can change
my peace with Christ unless I am careful.

But it I cannot help you, that is as it is, God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
No....we go against your false view not found in scripture.....get your facts straight...
I do not want to be included in the "we" thank you.
And YTG holds a view found in scripture, just like your own, founded on different interpretations.

So all this sentence is wrong. Is this how you witness to the King how asks us to be precise, caring
and careful?

It is slightly amusing if not serious, claiming you stand on facts, which are not clear for you personally
and desire to speak with authority. Is this how bible schools teach their graduates to behave?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
"6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" Isa64:6
This is a verse that applies when we first come to the cross.
If a believer cannot do righteous acts in Christ, then how are such things ever done?
And why did Jesus say this

Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Matt 6:1

Jesus acknowledges there are such things as acts of righteousness.
Of Cornelius God declared

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God."
Acts 10:5

We are justified by Christ so that we might

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:11-13

It is these works that shine like a light before men of Gods work in our hearts.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,158
1,974
113
If a believer cannot do righteous acts in Christ, then how are such things ever done?
I haven't really seen anyone in this thread (who speak of salvation by grace through faith) making any such point ^ .

The point is, that we do not do righteous acts in order to be saved.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Amen...more truth rejected by the Cainologists, Pharisees and working for salvation losers...
hahahahhahahahah there are NONE RIGHTEOUS AND NONE GOOD PAL.....ESPECIALLY iF THEY NEED TO BE SAVED....MAN.....your dogma is really full of holes and ignorance
100% agree.....he devalues Christ, his work, his power, his shed blood, his faith, his grace and the fact that Jesus only saves by faith...........very deceptive
Because those that devalue the work of Jesus by embellishing the gospel with works and some false self purifying dogma have trusted into a message with no power to SAVE......!!!
So what is your stance about lying to the Holy Spirit?
Did you agree to this post below by Budman or not?
Yes, they were saved. The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, but they can never be lost.

At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. Even if they walk away later. They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
I haven't really seen anyone in this thread (who speak of salvation by grace through faith) making any such point ^ .

The point is, that we do not do righteous acts in order to be saved.
...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

Have you been presented to Christ as a pure virgin all by yourself?

...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

...I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 2 Corinthians 11:2
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
...Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM. Hebrews 9:27-28