Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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#61
Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell? I'm raising this issue because of another thread started by someone who finds himself in a battle to retain his faith over the difficulty of believing in eternal damnation. This thread will focus on this issue from the perspective of Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the Book of Revelation in that order.

Knowledge of the original languages is important for understanding Scripture, partly because there is often no one-to-one exact English equivalent for Hebrew and Greek theological terms. Important examples are the Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") words often translated "eternal." In fact, both words can mean "for a long time" and "enduring." Thus, in the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs the death of Isaac can be described as "enduring (aionios) sleep" with the implication of ultimate postmortem survival. Consider these 3 NT examples where "aionios" does not mean "eternal:
(a) " that you should receive him (Onesimus) forever (aionion"--better translated "for good"--Philemon 25)."
(b) the use of aionios" in the plural to mean "long ages" in Romans 16:25 and 1 Timothy 1:9
(C) the frequent use of "aionios" by the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew "olam, which means "for a long time"
Hello MadHermit,

I've done much study on this subject and that because of so much false teachings on practically every Biblical subject. Below is the the definition of the noun "aion" and its adjective "aionios."

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Strong's Concordance
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

Therefore, the word "aion" or "aionios" can be used to describe "an age, a cycle of time, unending life, or having no beginning or ending."

Below is an example of "aionios" translated as "eternal" , in regards to eternal life for the believer:

"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ in service of the faith of God’s elect and of their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

So, since the word "aionios" is being used to describe the existence of the believer, is it referring to only a cycle of time, an age, or having no ending? If you picked "having no ending" you would be correct.

It is interesting and convenient, that the only examples that you posted above, refer to anionios as being temporary, i.e. coming to an end at some point. However, as I have pointed out above, the word aionios used to describe the believers existence in the kingdom of God would have to be referring to never-ending, on-going life. Below is another example of aionios as inferring having no beginning or ending:

"And he (an angel) swore by Him who lives forever and ever (aionios and aionios), who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!"

Within the context the angel is swearing by God who lives for "aionios and aionios" and since we know from God's word that He has no beginning or ending, then the word "aionios" can only mean "having no beginning or ending," that is unless you think that God lives only for a cycle of time or an age? The context in any given scripture will define the meaning of aion and aionios.

The other thing to consider in the use of words, is the supporting words in the context that support the meaning. Below is another example:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever (aion and aion). Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

"And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."

Regarding the excerpt above, one would have to be existing in order to be "tormented forever and ever" and that in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

"the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever."

In order for the smoke of one's torment to rise up forever and ever, that individual would have to be existing. Understand this: there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, which means that the wicked will also receive a resurrected body. However, it will not be for the enjoyment of eternity in the kingdom of God, but an indestructible body to suit their eternal punishment.

"Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Just like the supporting words "rising up forever and ever," the words "No rest day or night" i.e. no intermission, rest or cessation, infer the meaning as having no end, but eternal punishment. In fact, there is no scripture in the word of God which infers temporary punishment for those being cast into the lake of fire. The meaning is always without end, everlasting, on-going.



(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”

You are correct in regards to the basis of the word "Gehenna," but its meaning is not temporary. Jesus used that word figuratively as an example of never ending/everlasting fire.

It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise.
The above would be false to apply because believers are not saved by a comparison of merits (good works) vs. transgressions. We are saved by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fulling and not by the believers own efforts.

Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant uses a debtor’s prison as an image for the limited duration of punishment in Gehenna: “And in his anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt (Matthew 18:34).” Here the debt’s payment and ultimate release remain a possibility. How the debt might be paid off remains unclear, but expiation and purgation remain possibilities. Remember, “debt” (Aramaic: “chob”) is the Aramaic term for “sin” that inspires this image of Hell as a debtor’s prison."

More controversial is the related possibility that Matthew 5:25-26 refers to Gehenna:

“Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you pay the last penny.”
The scriptures above are not a good examples either! What you're not understanding about the parable of the unforgiving servant is that, the debt can never be paid, as it on-gong. The debt is eternal/never ending, because all sin is against God Himself and therefore, the entire debt can never be paid up. It's always owed.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#62
In other words, mankind has always existed. This is nonsense.
your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from what i said, unless you're in the habit of travelling only backwards through time.

we travel forwards; time has an arrow.
{to have an origin} ≠ {to cease}
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,110
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#64
maybe yes, maybe no. I am no Universalists, I am not sure whether or not all will be saved, but I do see a chance, see John 12:32. However, man's free will MUST be a part!
John 12:32 is speaking of that which the 12 disciples were well acquainted with: THEIR promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [which we now know will commence upon Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev19 etc (they still were unaware of its TIMING at the Acts 1 setting [note: its TIMING, not its NATURE!])]; This is one of the "mis-defined" phrases that so many often misapply/misdefine and thus (consequently) come up with erroneous conclusions (like limited punishment given at the GWTj and Universalism and coming to faith AFTER DYING, and the like).

At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse (when they asked Him the Q in Matt24:3 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"), He had ALREADY spoken to them about THAT in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"); that is when the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom will thereafter commence [that is, after "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH, per Rev19, AND THAT will be "the age [singular] to come" [i.e. the earthly MK age], per what John 12:32 is speaking of (not "eternity" following the GWTj point in time!)
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
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#65
John 12:32 is speaking of that which the 12 disciples were well acquainted with: THEIR promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [which we now know will commence upon Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev19 etc (they still were unaware of its TIMING at the Acts 1 setting [note: its TIMING, not its NATURE!])]; This is one of the "mis-defined" phrases that so many often misapply/misdefine and thus (consequently) come up with erroneous conclusions (like limited punishment given at the GWTj and Universalism and coming to faith AFTER DYING, and the like).

At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse (when they asked Him the Q in Matt24:3 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"), He had ALREADY spoken to them about THAT in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"); that is when the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom will thereafter commence [that is, after "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH, per Rev19, AND THAT will be "the age [singular] to come" [i.e. the earthly MK age], per what John 12:32 is speaking of (not "eternity" following the GWTj point in time!)
As I said, I am NO Universalist.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#66
For 3 reasons the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil. 2:6-11 might be viewed as one of Paul’s visions of cosmic reconciliation and universal salvation: “Therefore, God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in Heaven and on Earth and under the Earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

(1) “Every knee…under the Earth” designates everyone in Hades, not everyone in Australia.
(2) For Paul, the confession “Jesus Christ is Lord” makes one a Christian and cannot be sincerely uttered apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). Indeed, to reject this claim conjures the comically absurd image of damned souls ascending to Heaven, confessing Jesus as Lord, and then being ambushed by a lever pulled by an angel that opens the floor and makes them fall, screaming back to Hell.:eek:
(3) Most importantly, the hymn as a whole is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: “Turn to me and saved, all you ends of the Earth! For I am God and there is no other…To me every knee shall bow and every tongues shall swear.”
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,110
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#67
As I said, I am NO Universalist.
I know, but you are also missing my point:

Not understanding what "the age [singular] to come" refers to (John 12:32), many writers apply it to "eternity" INSTEAD of what it actually means, and thus come to erroneous conclusions SUCH AS (..."Universalism" is just ONE erroneous conclusion derived from such faulty misapplications/-defintions... a "lose-your-salvation" doctrine applied to "the Church which is His body" is yet another faulty conclusion drawn from these kinds of "mis-defined"/"mis-applied" words and phrases and contexts).

All I'm saying to you is, take a look at what John 12:32 ACTUALLY refers to (see paragraph above ^ and my previous post #64 on this), and once you grasp this (and other similarly-oft-misdefined things), things will become clearer to you.

Read carefully. I'm not saying you are a Universalist. ;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#68
Commentary on Philippians 2:

[quoting Gaebelein]

"The description of His exaltation follows. God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every name. God raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory. What glory it is! In the first chapter of Hebrews we read that the risen man Christ Jesus is the heir of all things, “made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they” (Hebrews 1:4). In Him we have also obtained an inheritance. Before He ever received that glory He prayed to the Father “the glory Thou hast given me I have given to them” (John 17:22). In His glorious exaltation He is likewise our pattern. We shall see Him as He is and shall be like Him, His fellow-heirs. And while we follow in His steps down here we can look upon Him seated in the highest heaven and rejoice that we shall someday be with Him and share His glory. Every knee must ultimately bow at the name of Jesus, even beings under the earth, infernal beings. They must own His title in glory. Yet this does not make them saved beings. Nor does this passage teach that ultimately all the lost will be saved, as claimed by restitutionists and others. The fact that every tongue will have to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord does not mean the salvation of the lost. In Colossians 1:20 things, or beings in heaven and on earth are also mentioned in connection with reconciliation, but then the things under the earth are omitted. See our annotations on that passage."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Philippians 2

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; source: Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/philippians/2.htm ]



Colossians 1 Commentary quote coming in next post...
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,110
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#69
Commentary on Colossians 1:

[quoting Gaebelein]

"He made peace in the blood of His cross. Then the great work of redemption was accomplished. And through the blood of the cross, all things are to be reconciled by Him to the Godhead, whether things on earth or things in heaven. What reconciliation is this? It is a reconciliation which is not yet accomplished. It includes all creation and the universe. The heavens and the earth will be completely delivered from the power of evil. This reconciliation of all things in virtue of the blood of His cross will take place when He comes again, when all things are put in subjection under His feet. All is in disorder in creation; it is a groaning creation. Satan with his wicked spirit is in the heavenlies and defilement is there. Yet the purchase price has been paid in the blood of His cross. The reconciliation of all things yet to come is the same which Peter preached as “the restitution of all things of which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since time began” (Acts 3:19-21).

"Therefore the prophets in the Old Testament give us the meaning of this coming reconciliation. We find it predicted in portions of the prophetic Word, concerning the coming age [singular], when righteousness reigns, peace is established, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covers the earth and the earth is full of His glory, when Israel has received the promised blessing and glory, and groaning creation no longer groans under the curse (Isaiah 11:6-9; Romans 8:19-22). It will all be accomplished when He returns, whose right it is to reign and who paid for all in the blood of His cross. Then all present disorder will cease, the curse will be removed, Satan will be bound. This dispensation of the fullness of times will have come and Christ will reign and His saints with Him. Does this reconciliation include the unsaved, the unregenerated, who reject Christ and remain in their sins? Does it include Satan and the fallen angels? Some, who call themselves “Reconciliationists” or “Restitutionists” teach this; and so does Russellism and other cults. But it is not so. The Scriptures do not teach such a universal reconciliation which reaches the wicked dead and wicked spirits. The best proof is when we compare the statement here with a similar one in Philippians 2:10. In this passage Paul speaks of the things under the earth, which are the lost. It is there the question of acknowledging the supreme authority of the Lord. But here in Colossians where it is the question of reconciliation, things on earth and things in heaven are mentioned, but the things under the earth are omitted, because there is not reconciliation for such.

“These shall go away into everlasting punishment”; no future reconciliation is anywhere promised in the Word of God for the lost."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Colossians 1

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed insert mine; source: Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/colossians/1.htm ]
 
R

rubberball

Guest
#70
Two other considerations from the practice of interpretation. First, you take any word or passage in context and thus with its natural meaning according to context. Secondly, there is the law of first mention. The earliest context 'imply' forever, not a limited amount of time. That is the natural understanding of the word and its meaning. (Gen. 3) Another thing, it seems this is based upon 'implied' meanings. Comparing Scripture with Scripture reveals the eternal nature of the lake of fire (hell) is eternal.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
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#71
I don't believe I've seen a response by you regarding my Post #10 of this thread. There is a difference between the word "age [singular]" (which is always attached to time and history in this earthly existence) and the phrase "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase [put together THIS WAY] always refers to what we now call "eternity / forever")
I'm sorry I didn't read your post. I have no problem believing only God is eternal and whoever or whatever God wills to be eternal. I hope as we go along in our talk, you will see how torment isn't eternal.

[the GWTj follows all of that... meaning, follows the 1000-yr promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body," to be clear)
The reign of the Messiah has been bastardized by Jewish and Christian theologians, because the reign of Christ on earth has nothing to do with how the rule of any king is typically thought of. Jews who are waiting for the Messiah to come and begin reigning over them, or Christians who are waiting for Jesus to begin his rule on earth don't know God very well, if at all.

In his OP post, he only covered "age [singular]" (that which is attached to the earth), and not the phrase I presented in my Post #10.

What say you regarding the content of Post #10??
I'll read it.
 
Mar 29, 2019
27
3
3
#72
Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell? I'm raising this issue because of another thread started by someone who finds himself in a battle to retain his faith over the difficulty of believing in eternal damnation. This thread will focus on this issue from the perspective of Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the Book of Revelation in that order.

Knowledge of the original languages is important for understanding Scripture, partly because there is often no one-to-one exact English equivalent for Hebrew and Greek theological terms. Important examples are the Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") words often translated "eternal." In fact, both words can mean "for a long time" and "enduring." Thus, in the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs the death of Isaac can be described as "enduring (aionios) sleep" with the implication of ultimate postmortem survival. Consider these 3 NT examples where "aionios" does not mean "eternal:
(a) " that you should receive him (Onesimus) forever (aionion"--better translated "for good"--Philemon 25)."
(b) the use of aionios" in the plural to mean "long ages" in Romans 16:25 and 1 Timothy 1:9
(C) the frequent use of "aionios" by the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew "olam, which means "for a long time"

(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”

Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant uses a debtor’s prison as an image for the limited duration of punishment in Gehenna: “And in his anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt (Matthew 18:34).” Here the debt’s payment and ultimate release remain a possibility. How the debt might be paid off remains unclear, but expiation and purgation remain possibilities. Remember, “debt” (Aramaic: “chob”) is the Aramaic term for “sin” that inspires this image of Hell as a debtor’s prison.

More controversial is the related possibility that Matthew 5:25-26 refers to Gehenna:

“Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you pay the last penny.”

The symbolic interpretation of the prison as Gehenna seems preferable for 4 reasons:
(1) This saying makes little sense if taken literally. Jesus would in effect be saying: “Let me tell you how to beat the rap of criminal charges. Wait till you and your accuser are actually on the road on the way to court and then kiss up to him.”
(2) "Jesus always applies the formula “Truly I say to you” to our relationship with God, never to a purely secular issue like a court proceeding.
(3) In the first 2 centuries this saying is always interpreted symbolically.
(4) In the Lukan context (12:57-59) the saying is located in an eschatological context.
That said, Matthew 18:34 removes the necessity of invoking this saying to establish Jesus’ image of Gehenna as a debtor’s prison.

Jesus’ image of “few stripes” as an image of punishment in Gehenna implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release: “The slave who did not know and did what deserved a beating will be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:48).”

As for Jesus’ view that people who don’t follow Him can be saved, Mark 9:40 is certainly relevant: “Whoever is not against us is for us.”

Don't be deceived there is one and only one unforgivable sin

Matthew 12:31

“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the HolyGhost shall not be forgiven unto men.”

King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

King James Version (KJV)

The grace of God is greater then our sins
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
#73
if anyone ceases to exist, they were never anything but an illusion to begin with.
@Magenta
In other words, mankind has always existed. This is nonsense.

If H. ‘is not’, then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren’t, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can’t believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.
- C.S. Lewis, from 'A Grief Observed'
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#74
John chapter 5: (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#75
Waggles: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (John 5:25."

Ironically, Waggles doesn't realize that the text he cites against my position actually supports it! Jesus is saying that now (I. e. very soon) is the hour when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice. That saying was fulfilled by Jesus' evangelistic descent into Hell (1 Peter 319; 4:6)!
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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#76
If everyone will get out of hell no matter what they've done, or what religious belief they adhere to, then there was absolutely no reason for Jesus to have suffered and died on the cross.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#77
Hello MadHermit,

I've done much study on this subject and that because of so much false teachings on practically every Biblical subject. Below is the the definition of the noun "aion" and its adjective "aionios."

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Strong's Concordance
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

Therefore, the word "aion" or "aionios" can be used to describe "an age, a cycle of time, unending life, or having no beginning or ending."

Below is an example of "aionios" translated as "eternal" , in regards to eternal life for the believer:

"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ in service of the faith of God’s elect and of their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

So, since the word "aionios" is being used to describe the existence of the believer, is it referring to only a cycle of time, an age, or having no ending? If you picked "having no ending" you would be correct.

It is interesting and convenient, that the only examples that you posted above, refer to anionios as being temporary, i.e. coming to an end at some point. However, as I have pointed out above, the word aionios used to describe the believers existence in the kingdom of God would have to be referring to never-ending, on-going life. Below is another example of aionios as inferring having no beginning or ending:

"And he (an angel) swore by Him who lives forever and ever (aionios and aionios), who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!"

Within the context the angel is swearing by God who lives for "aionios and aionios" and since we know from God's word that He has no beginning or ending, then the word "aionios" can only mean "having no beginning or ending," that is unless you think that God lives only for a cycle of time or an age? The context in any given scripture will define the meaning of aion and aionios.

The other thing to consider in the use of words, is the supporting words in the context that support the meaning. Below is another example:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever (aion and aion). Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

"And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."

Regarding the excerpt above, one would have to be existing in order to be "tormented forever and ever" and that in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

"the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever."

In order for the smoke of one's torment to rise up forever and ever, that individual would have to be existing. Understand this: there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, which means that the wicked will also receive a resurrected body. However, it will not be for the enjoyment of eternity in the kingdom of God, but an indestructible body to suit their eternal punishment.

"Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Just like the supporting words "rising up forever and ever," the words "No rest day or night" i.e. no intermission, rest or cessation, infer the meaning as having no end, but eternal punishment. In fact, there is no scripture in the word of God which infers temporary punishment for those being cast into the lake of fire. The meaning is always without end, everlasting, on-going.



(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”

You are correct in regards to the basis of the word "Gehenna," but its meaning is not temporary. Jesus used that word figuratively as an example of never ending/everlasting fire.



The above would be false to apply because believers are not saved by a comparison of merits (good works) vs. transgressions. We are saved by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fulling and not by the believers own efforts.

The scriptures above are not a good examples either! What you're not understanding about the parable of the unforgiving servant is that, the debt can never be paid, as it on-gong. The debt is eternal/never ending, because all sin is against God Himself and therefore, the entire debt can never be paid up. It's always owed.
Dead people without a spirit cannot suffer.

Hell is the living suffering without Christ our rest of this worldism, .He suffered it as payment for our sin, a living sacrifice. Christ as eternal God cannot die. The body of the Son of man did not see corruption for those three days. (decay time stood still like making the shadow go backward, or the Sun stood still . )

When those who leave this realm under the Sun vanish those who have been given a new spirt and new heart will arise and receive their promised new bodies . Those who did not receive a new spirit and new heart .There temporal corrupted bodies will return to the father who gave it temporally, and their temporal flesh returns to the dust

Ecclesiastes 12:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
145
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#78
If everyone will get out of hell no matter what they've done, or what religious belief they adhere to, then there was absolutely no reason for Jesus to have suffered and died on the cross.
On the contrary, Christ's atoning death on t he cross covers all!

"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:23)."

But the subject here is ultimate release from Hell, not universalism, and damned souls still need to respond positively to Gold's offer of grace and mercy.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#79
On the contrary, Christ's atoning death on t he cross covers all!

"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:23)."

But the subject here is ultimate release from Hell, not universalism, and damned souls still need to respond positively to Gold's offer of grace and mercy.
Hell is the living suffering of this world. It can be referred as the belly of the whale. We who have Christ can rest in our works. All what People will be lifted up ? As many as the Father gave to the Son? Can't lift up dead men that have no substance neither flesh nor spirit. . Up in smoke.

Can't draw up non spirit life as ashes.

Unbelievers that are not given new spirit life that will never die when they (approx. 70 years.)give up the temporal corruptible ghost It returns to the father who gave it temporally, the flesh returns to the dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Again with what did he lift them up with ?

For as the body without the "spirit" is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James2:26

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3: 19

I would offer the verse above does not say he went into a prison, but is saying being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit in regard to those that were already in prison sort of a holding cell for the old testament saints until the time of glory. The Bosom of Abraham as the invisible presence of God. The graves were opened as promised by faith they entered into the heavenly City

The eternal wage was paid in full nothing could hold them back pardoned in full.. Going back two chapters which is leading up to what you offered .It would seem they as us on this side of the cross both received the end of our new faith as we do look back to the glory of that reformation they looked ahead by the same faith working in them as it is written .

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:9-11
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
#80
On the contrary, Christ's atoning death on t he cross covers all!

"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:23)."

But the subject here is ultimate release from Hell, not universalism, and damned souls still need to respond positively to Gold's offer of grace and mercy.
Oh? The Bible teaches all of those human beings who take the Mark of the Beast during the Tribulation will NEVER get out of the Lake of Fire. Nor will the Antichrist or the False Prophet:

"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-12)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)