Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[preston39]

Some people have faith in God.

Some people have faith in self.

IF you believe salvation can be lost, in any way, shape, or form, then you believe in self.

If you believe it is God that saves us and keeps us saved then you have faith in God.

.....and if you believe that you need to study scripture. If you can't find the references let me know I will get them for.you.
Start with this understanding; G-d makes salvation available to us...under certain conditions. We can take advantage of the offer or we can ignore it. Further, we can accept the offer and later rescind it.
G-d is not in the business of forcing anyone. Remember Adam and Eve in the garden....He gave them a choice. You and I have a choice.

 

[preston39]

There are verses that support eternal security and verses that don't, here is a verse that supports both, and also those who don't know
"Walk in the Light while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes."

The ones you are thinking of are negated by this single one (never mind the 20 others);..."sacrifice (Christ on the Cross) for forgiveness is not available where sin is present".

I am not aware of one which proves OSAS...please provide the reference. The new age religion types has spun this from...eternal after death and G-d awarding eternal salvation. TRUE...after He does that from judgement.

 

[stillness]

Impossible: Scripture does not contradict - OSAS cannot be both true and false

The ones you are thinking of are negated by this single one (never mind the 20 others);..."sacrifice (Christ on the Cross) for forgiveness is not available where sin is present".

I am not aware of one which proves OSAS...please provide the reference. The new age religion types has spun this from...eternal after death and G-d awarding eternal salvation. TRUE...after He does that from judgement.

I was under the impression that the hidden meaning would be obvious. Those who walk in the light are eternally secure, those in sin don't know where they are going. Those with clean hands and pure hearts will ascend. "As we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." These are eternally secure, "If any man sins we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ, He is the cleansing sacrifice foe our sins and not for ours but for the sins of the whole world." Now about those who don't know where they are going, If you addressed me when I was in sin and asked me if I was eternally secure, I would have to honestly say I don't know. But some their pride will rise up instead, only by pride comes contention. Admitting our sin and praying one for another we are restored. It is a journey of recovery. Once I heard a group of people praying for me, mostly woman, I was at a church meting but was hearing them in the spirit during worship, then the Lord told me He wanted me to hear, shortly after I went into a Christian recovery center, That was over 3 years ago.

 

[Guojing]

I am not aware of one which proves OSAS...please provide the reference. The new age religion types has spun this from...eternal after death and G-d awarding eternal salvation. TRUE...after He does that from judgement.

When you have been debating perspectives in this forum long enough, you will realized that it is very difficult to "prove" anything using scripture. All of us interpret scripture according to how we were brought up as Christians.

But a passage that might fulfill OSAS would be Romans 5:12-19. The argument that Paul used was: If the first Adam's disobedience was so powerful that none of his descendants could lose that gift (Sinful nature) thru any other actions other than turning to the final Adam, why would people think the final Adam's obedience was less powerful that a Christians can somehow, thru his actions, lose that gift (Righteousness)?

 

[stillness]

When you have been debating perspectives in this forum long enough, you will realized that it is very difficult to "prove" anything using scripture. All of us interpret scripture according to how we were brought up as Christians.

But a passage that might fulfill OSAS would be Romans 5:12-19. The argument that Paul used was: If the first Adam's disobedience was so powerful that none of his descendants could lose that gift (Sinful nature) thru any other actions other than turning to the final Adam, why would people think the final Adam's obedience was less powerful that a Christians can somehow, thru his actions, lose that gift (Righteousness)?

"For this reason we both labor and suffer reproach because we believe in the Living God who is the Saviour of all men especially of them that believe." "The end of the commandment is Love out of a pure heart and sincere Faith and a good conscience." These have overcome the word, these are saints who are eternally secure "Over these the second death has no power." Yes I will be misunderstood but my conscience is clear that I have not added to the word, Just not explaining well. The sea gave up the dead that are in them and death and hell gave up the dead that are in them and everyone was judged according to his works." The Judgment, "For as much as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to Me." "He that receives a prophet as a prophet receives a prophets reward." But those who reject their opportunity to Love Jesus in the least, reject the Holy Spirit and become filled with violence: the mark of the enemy Ezekiel 28:16, are not found in the book of life.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Impossible: Scripture does not contradict - OSAS cannot be both true and false

Is this true?
For a person who is known to God before time, chosen, comes to faith, stays within faith
and is called home, OSAS was true.

The question I am asking is simply our frameworks or ideas often reflect one perspective.

And that perspective when applied to other situations might be wrong.

If salvation is actually defined how we end with or without the Lord, then OSAS means
those who thought they were saved were not. And the not being saved is a rather crucial
point invalidating the whole theology.

A key concept in all of this is the difference between an intellectual assent to an idea
and actually putting it into action in ones heart.

Two key ideas are heart cleansing and putting on the things of God through choice.
The first step of faith is to accept what Jesus is saying about us is true.
We are lost sinners, without hope, dysfunctional and dying.

The next step is to recognise through the cross we have cleansing and forgiveness and
the path to perfection is through following and obeying Him with a communion with the
Holy Spirit which can only be walked through repentance and faith.

If OSAS believers deny the walk or obedience or the goal they are lost.
Without change and transformation, there is no salvation, because we are just sinners held
in the slavery of sin.

 

[Guojing]

"For this reason we both labor and suffer reproach because we believe in the Living God who is the Saviour of all men especially of them that believe." "The end of the commandment is Love out of a pure heart and sincere Faith and a good conscience." These have overcome the word, these are saints who are eternally secure "Over these the second death has no power." Yes I will be misunderstood but my conscience is clear that I have not added to the word, Just not explaining well. The sea gave up the dead that are in them and death and hell gave up the dead that are in them and everyone was judged according to his works." The Judgment, "For as much as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to Me." "He that receives a prophet as a prophet receives a prophets reward." But those who reject their opportunity to Love Jesus in the least, reject the Holy Spirit and become filled with violence: the mark of the enemy Ezekiel 28:16, are not found in the book of life.

Your point is that you don’t believe in osas? It’s not clear upon reading.

There is a difference between salvation and being rewarded for works done after you are saved.

 

[Grandpa]

.....and if you believe that you need to study scripture. If you can't find the references let me know I will get them for.you.
Start with this understanding; G-d makes salvation available to us...under certain conditions. We can take advantage of the offer or we can ignore it. Further, we can accept the offer and later rescind it.
G-d is not in the business of forcing anyone. Remember Adam and Eve in the garden....He gave them a choice. You and I have a choice.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Well it only took 3 verses to completely refute everything you just said.

DO you have any more rubbish you want me to refute with scripture?

 

[Chester]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Well it only took 3 verses to completely refute everything you just said.

DO you have any more rubbish you want me to refute with scripture?

Exactly! Those verses mean exactly what they say! Praise the Lord!

The one who comes to the Father (through the Father's drawing), Jesus will raise this one up at the last day.
We are saved by grace through faith and this is not by us: it is all a gift of God.
And here is Romans 11:28-30 in the NLT: Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead (And I say Amen - God's call and gifts to Israel will never be revoked.)

Now what rubbish do these Scriptures refute? I think they give us some beautiful wonderful truths about the Father, about salvation, and about the nation of Israel.

(Not sure how the topic of OSAS enters in here? This seems off-topic of the thread - there is nothing about OSAS here that I see)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

.....and if you believe that you need to study scripture. If you can't find the references let me know I will get them for.you.
Start with this understanding; G-d makes salvation available to us...under certain conditions. We can take advantage of the offer or we can ignore it. Further, we can accept the offer and later rescind it.
G-d is not in the business of forcing anyone. Remember Adam and Eve in the garden....He gave them a choice. You and I have a choice.

God gave man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but God is sovereign in choosing our eternal destination, without the choice of man.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Exactly! Those verses mean exactly what they say! Praise the Lord!

The one who comes to the Father (through the Father's drawing), Jesus will raise this one up at the last day.
We are saved by grace through faith and this is not by us: it is all a gift of God.
And here is Romans 11:28-30 in the NLT: Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead (And I say Amen - God's call and gifts to Israel will never be revoked.)

Now what rubbish do these Scriptures refute? I think they give us some beautiful wonderful truths about the Father, about salvation, and about the nation of Israel.

(Not sure how the topic of OSAS enters in here? This seems off-topic of the thread - there is nothing about OSAS here that I see)

Chester, I started a new thread that I would like your comments on. The title is "House of Israel."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your point is that you don’t believe in osas? It’s not clear upon reading.

There is a difference between salvation and being rewarded for works done after you are saved.

I agree with your statement. Salvation, according to the Greek interpretation, means "a Deliverance". The scriptures talk more about us being saved (delivered) by our good works here on earth than it does on being saved (delivered) eternally, and receiving that salvation while we are still living our lives here on earth. Most of God's children think that all salvation scriptures are talking about eternal salvation, which will lead you into a false doctrine of "eternal salvation by our good works".

 

[preston39]

Is this true?
For a person who is known to God before time, chosen, comes to faith, stays within faith
and is called home, OSAS was true.

The question I am asking is simply our frameworks or ideas often reflect one perspective.

And that perspective when applied to other situations might be wrong.

If salvation is actually defined how we end with or without the Lord, then OSAS means
those who thought they were saved were not. And the not being saved is a rather crucial
point invalidating the whole theology.

A key concept in all of this is the difference between an intellectual assent to an idea
and actually putting it into action in ones heart.

Two key ideas are heart cleansing and putting on the things of God through choice.
The first step of faith is to accept what Jesus is saying about us is true.
We are lost sinners, without hope, dysfunctional and dying.

The next step is to recognise through the cross we have cleansing and forgiveness and
the path to perfection is through following and obeying Him with a communion with the
Holy Spirit which can only be walked through repentance and faith.

If OSAS believers deny the walk or obedience or the goal they are lost.
Without change and transformation, there is no salvation, because we are just sinners held
in the slavery of sin.

Not so. You are avoiding addressing the basics; When G-d says we are saved...after His judgement...then we are saved. Until that time we are ...born again...and living a righteous life.

 

[Grandpa]

Exactly! Those verses mean exactly what they say! Praise the Lord!

The one who comes to the Father (through the Father's drawing), Jesus will raise this one up at the last day.
We are saved by grace through faith and this is not by us: it is all a gift of God.
And here is Romans 11:28-30 in the NLT: Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead (And I say Amen - God's call and gifts to Israel will never be revoked.)

Now what rubbish do these Scriptures refute? I think they give us some beautiful wonderful truths about the Father, about salvation, and about the nation of Israel.

(Not sure how the topic of OSAS enters in here? This seems off-topic of the thread - there is nothing about OSAS here that I see)

Salvation is a gift.

God does not repent of His Gifts.

Therefore salvation is never rescinded or taken back by God.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Not so. You are avoiding addressing the basics; When G-d says we are saved...after His judgement...then we are saved. Until that time we are ...born again...and living a righteous life.

I am always sceptical of people claiming promises apply to them, and warnings do not.
Jesus was very plain, follow Him, listen to Him, obey Him. Love is core to everything,
a people of God, heaven with particular expression of community and care.

Yet what do men claim? I am saved because I have gone through some religious
beliefs and said a few words, and God will keep me safe no matter what.
There is a big gulf between the status of His people and their life, and what people
are prepared to call being His Holy Temple.

Everything hangs on one word, believe. If you believe Jesus is God.
If you believe Jesus is God you will do what He says.
If you believe Jesus came and died for you to give you victory, you will fight for it.
The farce, and I mean true farce, is stand for righteousness and the howling of hypocrite,
false teacher, sinner, rises up, as if these people do not care or believe Jesus delivers in
their lives. Talk about cleansing the heart, dying to self, paying a price, fighting, striving,
and they say evil, earning salvation.

This is the flesh is evil and the spirit is Holy, dualistic theology.
If OSAS is gnosticism diluted, then it is a form of faith, but not christian.

Either Jesus is God and His word dwells in ones heart or it is a make up your own faith.

 

[preston39]

Salvation is a gift.

God does not repent of His Gifts.

Therefore salvation is never rescinded or taken back by God.

You are basically correct. But, one can cause that to happen by our individual actions and choice.

 

[Argueless]

We are not working to save our own seves but we should work as fellow workers of God who are included in Christ or placed in His body to do good works which includes the works of the Gospel of our salvation for the benefit of those who are going to be saved through FAITH and OBEDIENCE to God the Father and in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

...For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME IN THE WORK OF THE GOSPEL. Philippians 2:21-22

...Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:14-18 A Workman Approved by God

It is God's work to save and if we are in Him, we will be His instruments of righteousness and fellow workers in His work of salvation until Jesus comes back to save those who are in His body, the church of God..

... “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.” John 4:34-38[/QUOTE]

 

[Guojing]

Either you believe in OSAS or you believe in salvation by works.

There is no way to argue that salvation is not by works and yet claim that one can lose their salvation by lack of good works or the presence of bad works, without resorting to circular arguments.

 

[preston39]

Either you believe in OSAS or you believe in salvation by works.

There is no way to argue that salvation is not by works and yet claim that one can lose their salvation by lack of good works or the presence of bad works, without resorting to circular arguments.

You are wrong on both points.
You are spinning works into a negative i.e earning rights there from......when in fact scripture tells us we will be judged by our works.

 

[Guojing]

You are wrong on both points.
You are spinning works into a negative i.e earning rights there from......when in fact scripture tells us we will be judged by our works.

Like I have said before, the problem with an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument. The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

I have yet to encounter an argument that can show your point without begging the question. Maybe you can try?