Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[seed_time_harvest]

Thanks for the response.
There are different views as to spiritual birth. Some suggest we are dead in our spirits and the
Lord gives us life. Other suggest an eternal spirit is given to our mortal bodies from heaven, and
we become eternal spirits. Some suggest the spirit is the real person while the flesh is our sinful
element, our spiritual side being perfect, holy and pure and our flesh being sinful and lost.

I would say our spirit soul and flesh is given new life, and as a whole we are a new creation.
We are not eternal, still mortal, but will not suffer from the second death.

The why is significant. Some say it is immediately we assent or accept Jesus is the Son of God
and died for our sins. There is no repentance or commitment to walk in the ways of God, just this
realisation of Jesus. So if the why happens for all people who come forward at a evangelistic
meeting, then all are eternally saved from then on. But statistically this means heaven is full of
failed believers, as few go on to join churches and are still following Jesus 5 years later.

Others have suggested people such as myself, by saying people can know Jesus and then turn
away are not saved at all, because only those who believe one cannot be lost are truly saved.
But this then means a theological question when one comes to faith, validates the experience or
stops it, which to me is an absurd idea.

Because of the above conclusions, only after a reasonable period can you say what has really
taken hold and what was just superficial. I therefore cannot accept the eternal spirit view because
it does not reflect what is actually going on and is simply not in scripture.

Romans 8:7-12
King James Version


7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

My view on spiritual rebirth and It's just opinion and hopefully If I'm wrong someone don't let me remain In error but I think the spirit that all men have at Natural birth gives life to the body but upon rebirth GOD gives them a BRAND new spirit that was created by GOD.GOD sealed us AND equipped us with desire AND fruit of the Spirit,JESUS the vine and we,the branches, members of the body receiving sustenance from the VINE displaying spiritual fruit establishing the law,then we should present our bodies a living sacrifice which Is a reasonable thing to do.

I believe before GOD did a work,the old man was alive but after GOD did a work In us the old man died and I don't believe the old man can slowly come back to life.
I believe that once a person believes they cannot stop believing,If a color Is red,how can someone tell you It's now blue when you ALREADY know It's red.

Some things are not clearly written In scripture that a person can see right away but they are received line upon line,precept upon precept,here a little,there a little.

 

[Chester]

Exactly, exactly! But from where did you get that this is the "faith of Jesus"? You might import that thought from other verses and contexts, but Paul does not say in Eph. 2:8.

I will research more but a scripture for the time being I found this one
1 Peter 1-3
King James Version


3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I think you are not understanding what I was trying to get across. I am not trying to make an issue or debate about the faith of Jesus versus faith from Jesus.

All I was trying to say was that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8 does not say if this faith is our faith or if it is the faith of Jesus.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Romans 8:7-12
King James Version


7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

My view on spiritual rebirth and It's just opinion and hopefully If I'm wrong someone don't let me remain In error but I think the spirit that all men have at Natural birth gives life to the body but upon rebirth GOD gives them a BRAND new spirit that was created by GOD.GOD sealed us AND equipped us with desire AND fruit of the Spirit,JESUS the vine and we,the branches, members of the body receiving sustenance from the VINE displaying spiritual fruit establishing the law,then we should present our bodies a living sacrifice which Is a reasonable thing to do.

I believe before GOD did a work,the old man was alive but after GOD did a work In us the old man died and I don't believe the old man can slowly come back to life.
I believe that once a person believes they cannot stop believing,If a color Is red,how can someone tell you It's now blue when you ALREADY know It's red.

Some things are not clearly written In scripture that a person can see right away but they are received line upon line,precept upon precept,here a little,there a little.

My quick response, is we all have a spirit we are born with, which knows our thoughts and mind.
Our spirit is our life without our bodies.
The term new spirit could be interpreted as a new way of handling life, a new perspective, a new
love and grace towards everything, not separate from what went before.

I would say cleansing the heart of sin, bitterness, hatred, hurt, unforgiveness, lust, envy, evil is key
to the change that happens when we come to faith. It is why Jesus talked so much about being
cleansed within, taking the log out of our own eye, of speaking from the heart, a cleansed purified
heart, having love flowing from us, which is locked down because of an uncleansed heart.
Not being able to grow and change, because an uncleansed heart stops this because it would cause
us more harm than good if the issues within are not resolved.

The evil desires can be neutralised and put into their right context once we see Jesus and His ways
sowing to the Spirit and not to the flesh. So that is my take on this.

From my interaction with believers, those who have let the Lord in and resolve their hearts show the
fruit of the Spirit, the rest seem to claim walking in the ways of Jesus is delusional.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are both correct. To a point!
Sounds like one is talking about AT the Cross.
The other is talking about that which transpires AFTER one "picks up their cross."
Luke 12
58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way (also considered baring ones' own cross), give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

I am talking about what transpired at the cross. Your correct. My Whole life from birth until death is what occurred at the cross.

He is talking about some magical mment when I guess he got saved, that was taken care of on the cross. But the rest (after the cross) is left for us to take care of ourselves.

Ie, Jesus made a downpayment on the cross to get us to him, Then we are on our own.

Where I believe when Jesus said it was finished (in literal greek, “paid in full” I believe him.

But no. We are not even close to being on the same page and we both most certainly can not be correct.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The faith we have comes SOLELY by God. People need to understand that.

Without that understanding we inevitably sway into a works Salvation doctrine.

NO ONE musters the faith out of themselves. The faith, as said in Ephesians, IS A GIFT FROM GOD. So in essence it IS from Jesus.

Yes, But it is not the faith of Jesus as some claim

It is a gift, It is like someone wants to give you a million dollars as a gift, But you think their is a catch or it is not real. So due to lack of faith, You say thanks but no thanks. On the other hand, If you have faith the giver is honest and the offer is real. You will recieve the gift and enjoy its benefits.

It was still a gift. But YOU had to have faith BEFORE you would receive it.

 

[PennEd]

Yes, But it is not the faith of Jesus as some claim

It is a gift, It is like someone wants to give you a million dollars as a gift, But you think their is a catch or it is not real. So due to lack of faith, You say thanks but no thanks. On the other hand, If you have faith the giver is honest and the offer is real. You will recieve the gift and enjoy its benefits.

It was still a gift. But YOU had to have faith BEFORE you would receive it.

Agree, but the question asked here is WHERE does that faith come from YOU used to receive the gift of eternal life?

HERE is the answer:

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The AND THAT is referring to faith, and Paul gives the reason why that faith is a gift from God. So we can't boast that we mustered it out of our own strength.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agree, but the question asked here is WHERE does that faith come from YOU used to receive the gift of eternal life?

HERE is the answer:

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The AND THAT is referring to faith, and Paul gives the reason why that faith is a gift from God. So we can't boast that we mustered it out of our own strength.

What I see is He is Saying we were saved by the GRACE which was a gift.

No one would think my having total faith in someone else to totally do every ounce of work to save me and not because of any work that I did was me tryign to save myself from my faith.

It just means God offers us grace, and he does the work to draw us and teach us what all that means, But he will not force us to recieve it, He wants us to chose to do that on our own

Something we CAN NOT do unless we completely empty all hope in self. And place our full faith in God.

As jesus said in John 6, it is thr work of God we come to faith. It is not of our own power or our own understanding or our own work.

 

[Blik]

And where sin abounds grace abounds the more....that is why there is no excuse for sin, as grace (the power of God) abounds the more....as always, OSAS is just an excuse to go on sinning and never face the truth that sin must be gone with...as Jesus says.

Those who are so concerned with OSAS are just people who are Christians, not out of love for God but only concerned with what God can give them. It is whether they are saved and all about themselves they are concerned about. They are like someone making a marriage only for wealth, not for love. Saved people are those who live with and for the Lord.

 

[PennEd]

What I see is He is Saying we were saved by the GRACE which was a gift.

No one would think my having total faith in someone else to totally do every ounce of work to save me and not because of any work that I did was me tryign to save myself from my faith.

It just means God offers us grace, and he does the work to draw us and teach us what all that means, But he will not force us to recieve it, He wants us to chose to do that on our own

Something we CAN NOT do unless we completely empty all hope in self. And place our full faith in God.

As jesus said in John 6, it is thr work of God we come to faith. It is not of our own power or our own understanding or our own work.

There isn't any question the Grace is a gift, but that can't be what Paul is talking about here for a couple of reasons. First off, the AND THAT follows right after the mention of faith, which designates that is the gift he is referring to here.
Secondly, it would be highly redundant to refer to the Grace as being the gift here, BECAUSE Grace is ALWAYS understood as unmerited favor. Which is intrinsically a gift.

If our faith is not a gift from God, then where does it come from? I know the pat answer from most is
Romans 10:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But even HERE it is reaffirmed that the faith comes from God but many only quote the first half of the verse.

 

[dcontroversal]

the example of Jesus was works. you can not follow Jesus with out works. there is just no way around it.

The just shall live by faith.......it does not say works.....YOU CANNOT follow Jesus WITHOUT FAITH......!

 

[dcontroversal]

Those who are so concerned with OSAS are just people who are Christians, not out of love for God but only concerned with what God can give them. It is whether they are saved and all about themselves they are concerned about. They are like someone making a marriage only for wealth, not for love. Saved people are those who live with and for the Lord.

The above is a false accusation without merit.....more dishonesty comes from those that teach a losable salvation than the snake when he added one word in the garden!!

The above statement by BLIK is false, not true, not of God and contrary to the truth with no basis of truth. merit and or HONESTY!!

 

[jaybird88]

The just shall live by faith.......it does not say works.....YOU CANNOT follow Jesus WITHOUT FAITH......!

why is it we can not confirm this "faith only" idea with Jesus?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

why is it we can not confirm this "faith only" idea with Jesus?

Faith only is like a plane with no wings, I mean it was built to fly so
there it is not flying but obviously that is an illusion because the faith
said it would fly so obviously it can

 

[dcontroversal]

why is it we can not confirm this "faith only" idea with Jesus?

The bible does confirm it.....too bad many cannot or will not receive it!!!

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith."

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith

Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him

2nd Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, and not by sight

No one denies that believers will bear fruit.....who produces the fruit? The ROOT or the branch <<-CHRIST IS THE ROOT....HE PRODUCES THE FRUIT THROUGH US AS LIVING SACRIFICES......

Faith is what God looks for.....and it is faith that saves, justifies, seals and IMPRESSES GOD....any work, fruit is PRODUCED BY CHRIST THROUGH US....

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There isn't any question the Grace is a gift, but that can't be what Paul is talking about here for a couple of reasons. First off, the AND THAT follows right after the mention of faith, which designates that is the gift he is referring to here.
Secondly, it would be highly redundant to refer to the Grace as being the gift here, BECAUSE Grace is ALWAYS understood as unmerited favor. Which is intrinsically a gift.

If our faith is not a gift from God, then where does it come from? I know the pat answer from most is
Romans 10:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But even HERE it is reaffirmed that the faith comes from God but many only quote the first half of the verse.

it is still YOUR FAITH.

God does not trust himself on your behalf As many people are trying to say.

YOU trusting God is also not a work one does to EARN salvation. If that were so. Then God could not say, We are SAVED (the actual gift) by Grace THROUGH faith

For by GRACE you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith. And not of yourself IT (Salvation) is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast/

 

[jaybird88]

The bible does confirm it.....too bad many cannot or will not receive it!!!

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith."

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith

Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him

2nd Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, and not by sight

No one denies that believers will bear fruit.....who produces the fruit? The ROOT or the branch <<-CHRIST IS THE ROOT....HE PRODUCES THE FRUIT THROUGH US AS LIVING SACRIFICES......

Faith is what God looks for.....and it is faith that saves, justifies, seals and IMPRESSES GOD....any work, fruit is PRODUCED BY CHRIST THROUGH US....

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

with exception to Habakkuk the rest are Paul writings, confirming Paul with Paul? and the Hb scripture is about faith, not faith alone.
faith with no works is an empty word. like me saying im gonna be the next president, i can say it all day every day but until i actually become president its nothing but me blowing out hot air.

 

[PennEd]

it is still YOUR FAITH.

God does not trust himself on your behalf As many people are trying to say.

YOU trusting God is also not a work one does to EARN salvation. If that were so. Then God could not say, We are SAVED (the actual gift) by Grace THROUGH faith

For by GRACE you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith. And not of yourself IT (Salvation) is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast/

Well obviously it's our faith. Not questioning that. The question is where did that faith come from that you have? Here are the verses again with all the words.
Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it isthe gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So to reiterate the AND THAT signifies the faith he just said. We don't need to know that Grace is a gift because the very word itself tells us that it is a gift.

Curious brother.

Why does it bother you to think that YOUR faith is a gift from God?

 

[dcontroversal]

with exception to Habakkuk the rest are Paul writings, confirming Paul with Paul? and the Hb scripture is about faith, not faith alone.
faith with no works is an empty word. like me saying im gonna be the next president, i can say it all day every day but until i actually become president its nothing but me blowing out hot air.

Like I said....too bad many will not receive the truth.....example right here in your post EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE TWO WITNESSES......and too be frank....it is idiotic to reject the truth with the above anti Paul attitude....he was taught by direct revelation from JESUS and was INSPIRED to write what was written......and to be even more frank.....the above attitude toward the writings of Paul is exactly why many will bust hell wide open when they take their last breath......

 

[dcontroversal]

You know.....those that pit Jesus against Paul are not being led by God...as a matter of fact only the devil or pure ignorance would lead anyone to pit the two against each other...the following FACTS ARE TRUE..

a. JESUS WAS BORN lived and died UNDER THE LAW WHICH RATIFIED THE NEW COVANANT....his words MUST BE VIEWED IN THIS LIGHT

b. Jesus had MANY THINGS TO SAY TO HIS DISCIPLES BUT THEY WERE NOT YET READY TO BEAR THEM

c. PAUL AS Saul, was chosen by JESUS, CORRRECTED in his theology, taught by direct revelation, inspired by God and TESTIFIED OF THE TRUTH OF THE NEW COVENANT....

d. THE WORDS OF PAUL ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS unless NOTED BY PAUL on a few RARE occasions


It is SATANIC to reject the words of Paul as inferior, IT IS SATANIC to pit Jesus and Paul against each other and IT IS SATANIC to reject the words of Paul over any and all other writers of the scripture.....!!

 

[Chester]

The bible does confirm it.....too bad many cannot or will not receive it!!!

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith."

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith

Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him

2nd Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, and not by sight

No one denies that believers will bear fruit.....who produces the fruit? The ROOT or the branch <<-CHRIST IS THE ROOT....HE PRODUCES THE FRUIT THROUGH US AS LIVING SACRIFICES......

Faith is what God looks for.....and it is faith that saves, justifies, seals and IMPRESSES GOD....any work, fruit is PRODUCED BY CHRIST THROUGH US....

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Excellent list of verses showing that we are saved by faith. Praise the Lord.

But not one of those verses says we are saved by "faith alone".