What are the essential beliefs needed for salvation?
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Compare the scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the doctrine that Jesus taught. Here is a scripture that explains who the natural man is, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; 1 Cor 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. All of the elect of God are born into this world as sinful beings because of the sin of Adam. Sometime in their lifetime God quickens them to a new life by taking their heart of stone out and replaces it with a heart of flesh (soft and absorbent) Eze 36:26. Eph 2 explains that transformation. If a person has a desire to know spiritual things and the Holy Spirit within him reveals some truths of the scriptures, then you know that you are his elect. Everyone on this forum probably are of the elect, unless they are here to voice their rejection of God.
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1 John 5:9-12 -
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.
Most of us here all know the story of how Jacob tricked his brother, Esau. which is before he came to truly know God. But, our all-knowing God knew the man he would become and how he would lead His people, whereas, Esau led his people to be an enemy nation of Israel. I don't deny anything that the Apostle Paul said, as I fully understand why he used a Hebrew figure of speech that pairs absolute terms to stress contrast. Jesus does the same thing when he says we cannot be his disciples unless we "hate" our families (Luke 14:26), whereas in Matthew 10:37, he simply warns us against loving them more than Him.
God is not just "loving," God is love. (1 John 4:8). All that anyone knows about real love is rooted in the character and nature of Almighty God, who is the origin, originator, and orchestrator of all true love. God cannot do anything that contradicts what being God means. For example, God cannot be dishonest or unjust because that would contradict God's truthfulness or justice. The three persons of the Trinity cannot be in competition with one another because that would contradict God's unity. Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-45 - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven ..." Now, does that sound like a God who hates???
God is not just "loving," God is love. (1 John 4:8). All that anyone knows about real love is rooted in the character and nature of Almighty God, who is the origin, originator, and orchestrator of all true love. God cannot do anything that contradicts what being God means. For example, God cannot be dishonest or unjust because that would contradict God's truthfulness or justice. The three persons of the Trinity cannot be in competition with one another because that would contradict God's unity. Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-45 - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven ..." Now, does that sound like a God who hates???
I've known many people who have lots of "head knowledge" of Scripture through extensive study, who are also professed Atheists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Gnostic, etc., all of which do not believe in the Gospel of Christ. Just having a desire to "know spiritual things" certainly doesn't mean you are saved. So far my experience with many people in this forum reveals that they do not have spiritual discernment and I'm realizing just how narrow the gate to life is and the gate to destruction is broader than ever.
I never put words in your mouth, I didn't quote you as saying this. I pointed out a logical conclusion based on your theology. If Christ death is meaningless until we do something, then it is meaningless for the vast majority of humankind and he is a failure regarding those people. You are saying the Father desires to save everyone and sent Jesus to die to save all those people. Christ said he came to do the Father's will. According to your theology he failed to do that and is a failed savior for most people. It's quite simple to see really.
I totally reject your interpretation of the outcome of my statement.. If a person does not believe that the death of Jesus on the cross pays the penalty for their sins they will not have it..
And no everyone will believe Jesus and trust in His Atonement.. This is not a failure of the LORD it is the failure of the individuels to believe and trust Jesus and they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire for their rejection of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Many people have believed and trusted in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus and so Gods will has been achieved because people have been saved..
And PS: God never declared that all humanity would be saved.. The Bible clearly reveals that some humans will be cast into the eternal lake of fire and be in torment in that lake forever and ever.
And no everyone will believe Jesus and trust in His Atonement.. This is not a failure of the LORD it is the failure of the individuels to believe and trust Jesus and they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire for their rejection of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Many people have believed and trusted in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus and so Gods will has been achieved because people have been saved..
And PS: God never declared that all humanity would be saved.. The Bible clearly reveals that some humans will be cast into the eternal lake of fire and be in torment in that lake forever and ever.
I have an opposite view of humanity from my study of the scriptures, in that, I believe the scriptures to teach that their are many more eternally saved people than there are of those who are not saved eternally. The scripture in Matt 7:13-14 The life that the narrow path that leads to life is not eternal life, but a good and peaceful life we can live as we live here in this world. The people that go in both gates are born again children of God. Those entering the strait gate are the ones that have been revealed, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, the true doctrine that Jesus taught. Those entering the wide gate are those that are preaching and teaching false doctrines. The elect of God, the scriptures say, are as many as the stars in heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore that cannot be numbered.
the bible says that a person that has been born of GOD WILL seek to purify their minds to be like their born again spirit.
1 John 3:1-4
King James Version
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:1-4
King James Version
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
But according to you, Christ died and paid the penalty for the sins of all mankind. God desires to save all men, he sent Christ to save all men, that was the mission. But he doesn't save all men. God loses most of the people that he sent Christ to die for. Call it what you like, but that god failed in his mission. He is not the God of scripture.
[quoting further from same article]
[under the Section Heading] "Denial Of A Ransom For All"
[…]
"Mr. Pink's dedication to defend an unscriptural idea brought him into trouble with 2 Corinthians 5:14,15 and I Timothy 2:5, 6. The former says, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again."' Now Mr. Pink labors to prove that these 'alls' mean only 'all the elect'. And then to bolster that point he makes "all were dead" to mean the elect believers died with Christ.
"This is not only far-fetched, but it is wrong from the very context. The all were in the place of death; that was the portion of all mankind because of sin. Then in grace the Lord Jesus came down and went into death for all - it is again the general thought as seen in propitiation. But the verse adds, "that they which live" might henceforth live "unto Him which died for them, and rose again." There is a contrast between the all being morally in the place of death, and death their allotted portion, and the "they which live" (not now all, but the saved who have life in Christ) who should now "live unto Him."
"Here are the words of another: "Christ's death for all is the proof that it was all over for mankind. If He went down in grace to the grave, it was just because men were already there, and none otherwise could be delivered.... There is then life in Him risen, and this not in Him only, but for those who believe. He is our life. And such is the meaning of 'those who live'; not merely those alive on earth (though this be implied, of course), but living of His life, in contrast with 'all dead.' "After going into the meaning of the Greek words, this writer adds concerning those who live: "It is not as including all for whom He died, but as of some out of all, 'those that live' in contradistinction to all dead. . . . The reader will observe that Christ's resurrection is associated only with 'those who live.' This again confirms the special class of the living, as only included in, and not identical with, all for whom He died. Those who would narrow the all for whom He died to the elect lose the first truth" - the judgment of death seen written on all, so that Christ's death becomes the ground of deliverance."
--Paul Wilson, from Section titled "Denial Of A Ransom For All" [scroll down; or see link under that Section title]
link: http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892#DENIAL OF A RANSOM FOR ALL
[end quoting; bold mine]
____________
This is seen in the distinction (in Romans) between:
--sinS (Romans 1-5:11)
--Sin (Romans 5:12 - chpt 8 end)
[under the Section Heading] "Denial Of A Ransom For All"
[…]
"Mr. Pink's dedication to defend an unscriptural idea brought him into trouble with 2 Corinthians 5:14,15 and I Timothy 2:5, 6. The former says, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again."' Now Mr. Pink labors to prove that these 'alls' mean only 'all the elect'. And then to bolster that point he makes "all were dead" to mean the elect believers died with Christ.
"This is not only far-fetched, but it is wrong from the very context. The all were in the place of death; that was the portion of all mankind because of sin. Then in grace the Lord Jesus came down and went into death for all - it is again the general thought as seen in propitiation. But the verse adds, "that they which live" might henceforth live "unto Him which died for them, and rose again." There is a contrast between the all being morally in the place of death, and death their allotted portion, and the "they which live" (not now all, but the saved who have life in Christ) who should now "live unto Him."
"Here are the words of another: "Christ's death for all is the proof that it was all over for mankind. If He went down in grace to the grave, it was just because men were already there, and none otherwise could be delivered.... There is then life in Him risen, and this not in Him only, but for those who believe. He is our life. And such is the meaning of 'those who live'; not merely those alive on earth (though this be implied, of course), but living of His life, in contrast with 'all dead.' "After going into the meaning of the Greek words, this writer adds concerning those who live: "It is not as including all for whom He died, but as of some out of all, 'those that live' in contradistinction to all dead. . . . The reader will observe that Christ's resurrection is associated only with 'those who live.' This again confirms the special class of the living, as only included in, and not identical with, all for whom He died. Those who would narrow the all for whom He died to the elect lose the first truth" - the judgment of death seen written on all, so that Christ's death becomes the ground of deliverance."
--Paul Wilson, from Section titled "Denial Of A Ransom For All" [scroll down; or see link under that Section title]
link: http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892#DENIAL OF A RANSOM FOR ALL
[end quoting; bold mine]
____________
This is seen in the distinction (in Romans) between:
--sinS (Romans 1-5:11)
--Sin (Romans 5:12 - chpt 8 end)
No.. My position is that Jesus died to pay for the sins of all whom would believe Him and trust in the Atonement He secured for their salvation.. I am NOT a universalist and as such i do not believe that the Atonement of Jesus pays for the sins of all human beings... Trying to be clear here to put a stop to people putting words into my mouth that i did not say..
Gods will is that all men should come to repentance and be saved.. But the Bible declares that not all men will come to repentance and be saved.. Jesus came to provide atonement for those who would believe Him and trust in that Atonement that Jesus secured..
No.. All those that God has foreknown since the foundation of the world who would accept the Atonement of Jesus would not be lost.. God has lost no one..
I call it your failure to interpret the Word of God correctly leading you to believe God has failed.. I on the other hand believe God to be a success.. His will shall be done..
Gods will is that all men should come to repentance and be saved.. But the Bible declares that not all men will come to repentance and be saved.. Jesus came to provide atonement for those who would believe Him and trust in that Atonement that Jesus secured..
No.. All those that God has foreknown since the foundation of the world who would accept the Atonement of Jesus would not be lost.. God has lost no one..
I call it your failure to interpret the Word of God correctly leading you to believe God has failed.. I on the other hand believe God to be a success.. His will shall be done..
The Two Goats of Leviticus 16 -
Leviticus 16:7 -
"And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."
Leviticus 16:8 -
"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat."
These TWO goats on the Day of Atonement represented both "propitiation" [the blood of the goat present before the Lord; "one lot for the Lord"] and "substitution" [the live goat led away; "the people's lot"] and it is only the latter that pertains solely to the believer (the first one, concerning "propitiation," pertains to all).
"But it is true that a certain respectable class around us do see nothing but the elect as the object of God. Their doctrine supposes only the second goat, or the people's lot. They see the all-importance of substitution, but Jehovah's lot has no place as distinct."
--Paul Wilson, The Two Goats of Leviticus 16 [article link on previous page of this thread]
[see also 2 Corinthians 5:14,15 "And that He died for all [this literally means "all"], that they which live [this pertains SOLELY to the believer] should not live henceforth unto themselves.." , and the post #153 regarding this]
Leviticus 16:7 -
"And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."
Leviticus 16:8 -
"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat."
These TWO goats on the Day of Atonement represented both "propitiation" [the blood of the goat present before the Lord; "one lot for the Lord"] and "substitution" [the live goat led away; "the people's lot"] and it is only the latter that pertains solely to the believer (the first one, concerning "propitiation," pertains to all).
"But it is true that a certain respectable class around us do see nothing but the elect as the object of God. Their doctrine supposes only the second goat, or the people's lot. They see the all-importance of substitution, but Jehovah's lot has no place as distinct."
--Paul Wilson, The Two Goats of Leviticus 16 [article link on previous page of this thread]
[see also 2 Corinthians 5:14,15 "And that He died for all [this literally means "all"], that they which live [this pertains SOLELY to the believer] should not live henceforth unto themselves.." , and the post #153 regarding this]
First I'll answer the last bit. I do not believe God fails. Your god fails, but not the God of scripture. I'd like to make that clear.
Second, I must apologize. I was under the impression that you were a standard arminian with the arguments and interpretations you provided. I ought to be more mindful that people are different and they hold differing views. For that I am deeply sorry. Now on to the meat
I do not understand how you do not see this as unbiblical. I could go on for pages on how we are dead in sin and how faith is a gift. I don't see that being useful here since so many wiser men than I have done all that over the last 500 years since the reformation. But you have to reread your post. Your god does not get what he desires. He is not the God of scripture, who accomplishes all His will and does all His good pleasure. How you can worship a good who wants something, but either cannot or will not bring it to pass is beyond me. If you'd like to comment I'd love to hear it, but I don't see why I need to show you that a god who cannot save all those he wants is not the God of scripture.
I would like to ask, do you believe in definite atonement? Did Jesus die only for His elect, or did he die for all humankind?
Second, I must apologize. I was under the impression that you were a standard arminian with the arguments and interpretations you provided. I ought to be more mindful that people are different and they hold differing views. For that I am deeply sorry. Now on to the meat
I do not understand how you do not see this as unbiblical. I could go on for pages on how we are dead in sin and how faith is a gift. I don't see that being useful here since so many wiser men than I have done all that over the last 500 years since the reformation. But you have to reread your post. Your god does not get what he desires. He is not the God of scripture, who accomplishes all His will and does all His good pleasure. How you can worship a good who wants something, but either cannot or will not bring it to pass is beyond me. If you'd like to comment I'd love to hear it, but I don't see why I need to show you that a god who cannot save all those he wants is not the God of scripture.
I would like to ask, do you believe in definite atonement? Did Jesus die only for His elect, or did he die for all humankind?
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The Bible say whosoever believe will save, so God give whosoever believe to Jesus, not by random, the Bible state how to be chosen, it is require to believe.
John 3:16
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Well i will comment but i doubt you will hear it because you are so focused on pushing your doctrines that you do not bother to actually read what other people say.. You simply put them into a box .. ( in this case arminian box) and ignore what they actually write down..
I cannot understand how people think they will ever guide anyone to the truth if they never actually read and understand what the other guy believes.. For me finding out what exactly the other guy believes shows me exactly where i need to walk that guy thought to get them to the truth..
Anyway until such time as you are ready to spend some time listening and not be focused on regurgitating what you have been indoctrinated into then engaging in discussion with you is a waste of time since you are not listening..
I cannot understand how people think they will ever guide anyone to the truth if they never actually read and understand what the other guy believes.. For me finding out what exactly the other guy believes shows me exactly where i need to walk that guy thought to get them to the truth..
Anyway until such time as you are ready to spend some time listening and not be focused on regurgitating what you have been indoctrinated into then engaging in discussion with you is a waste of time since you are not listening..