Not By Works

[lightbearer]

i want to say something: if you are the person who thinks that not by works means not by works of animal sacrifices, circumcision, diet laws etc. but its still by deeds done in righteousness. you are wrong friend. why? i say this not to spite or debate but in love.

ephesians 2:8-9 says not of works lest any man boast, if its something you can do then there is a boasting. that takes away the idea that its some works of righteousness. titus 3:5 that i quoted earlier also says not by works of righteousness which we have done, just lke 2 timothy 1:9.

this is why i think the interpretation that not of works just means circumcision, diet laws and animal sacrifices is false. you can still boast in your level of obedience and turning the other cheek and giving to the poor and getting victory over sin.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

weak in the world? i meet qualifications lolz. i right now im struggling to put socks on my feet due to back pain.

It is the ministration of the law that has changed. It went from Tables of stone and parchment (the Book of the Law) to the fleshly tables of the heart. Thus saith the Word in Romans 9:30-33

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

As seen above Faith is the issue. Faith is the stumbling stone in which Israel stumble on.

Let's continue. Romans 10:6-8,4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (THE WORD) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (THE WORD) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (CHRIST)is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

For Christ (the Word in the heart and mouth; which is the faith in which we speak) is the end of the law (on tables of Stone and and on parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Do we then make void the Law through Faith? Nay we establish it!

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 KJV)

GOD'S Laws, HIS Word, Christ in the heart, mind and mouth. A New Ministration! A new Manifestly declared to be the Epistle of Christ!

In that he saith, A new he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(Heb 8:13 KJV)

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5 KJV)

 

[PennEd]

I am not saying he lost his salvation. You missed my point.

You're right. I did. What's your point?

 

[Melach]

you can only lose your salvation if its your salvation. but if salvation is from the Lord like the bible teaches you cant lose something thats not yours

 

[lightbearer]

1 John 1:7-8

all present tense verbs.

if we are walking (Present) in the Light as He is in the light, we have (present) fellowship with each other and the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son cleanses us (present) us from all sin. If we say (present) we have (present) no sin, we lie (present) and the truth is (present tense) not in us

Thanks for the reply. Let's take a look.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is a promise of sanctification. Cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin in this case is a noun. We can have sin in our lives that needs cleansed that we have not acted upon. For example if I am fornicator yet do not fornicate nor do I through the power of Christ allow my flesh to be feed by dwelling on my desires, but still have the desires pop in for a visit. I have sin. But it is sin that has not been acted upon but non the less needs consented to (confessed) in order that it be cleansed; so it is no longer an issue in my life.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is a promise of sanctification. To get rid of the noun; sin before it becomes the verb; sinning

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sin here is a verb and it is in the past tense.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Here sin is a verb. And it is being used in a directive not to sin. If it were not possible to live a life not acting on our sin then John would not have directed us not to. But he continues to write

And if any man sin, we have an helper towards the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 1:7-10;2:1)

 

[Macabeus]

You're right. I did. What's your point?

I did not ask if he lost his salvation. I asked if he was saved in the first place.

 

[lightbearer]

you can only lose your salvation if its your salvation. but if salvation is from the Lord like the bible teaches you cant lose something thats not yours

But we can not accept it or walk away from it.

 

[Macabeus]

Thanks for the reply. Let's take a look.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is a promise of sanctification. Cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin in this case is a noun. We can have sin in our lives that needs cleansed that we have not acted upon. For example if I am fornicator yet do not fornicate nor do I through the power of Christ allow my flesh to be feed by dwelling on my desires, but still have the desires pop in for a visit. I have sin. But it is sin that has not been acted upon but non the less needs consented to (confessed) in order that it be cleansed; so it is no longer an issue in my life.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is a promise of sanctification. To get rid of the noun; sin before it becomes the verb; sinning

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sin here is a verb and it is in the past tense.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Here sin is a verb. And it is being used in a directive not to sin. If it were not possible to live a life not acting on our sin then John would not have directed us not to. But he continues to write

And if any man sin, we have an helper towards the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 1:7-10;2:1)

Yes, so in other words we are not sinlessly perfect. You do not have to commit any action to be a sinner, sin includes OMMISIONS. Sin also includes thoughts, motives, and intentions. When one absolutely cross all your t's and dot all your I's infallibly, then you are sinlessly perfect.

Only Jesus lived up to that measure.

 

[gb9]

Yes, so in other words we are not sinlessly perfect. You do not have to commit any action to be a sinner, sin includes OMMISIONS. Sin also includes thoughts, motives, and intentions. When one absolutely cross all your t's and dot all your I's infallibly, then you are sinlessly perfect.

Only Jesus lived up to that measure.

now, here is something we agree on.

 

[Macabeus]

now, here is something we agree on.

I think we agree on a lot more than you realize.

 

[Macabeus]

You're right. I did. What's your point?

I did not ask if he lost his salvation. I asked if he was saved in the first place.

The people who departed from Jesus in John 6:66, did they have saving faith?

John 6:66- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[gb9]

I think we agree on a lot more than you realize.

I think you are correct.

 

[dcontroversal]

What I was trying to get at is if the quote was talking in completed past tense.
So if we have been cleansed it's a past completed action and not a continuous action based on what we do or do not do.

AMEN.....SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SEALED and SANCTIFIED eternally <---ALL past tense with continuing results..........but hey........workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees MUST HELP JESUS

 

[dcontroversal]

See right here you conflated bearing fruit with perfection of fruit.

We love as we grow to perfection of love.

In other words, we are bearing fruit (love) while we are growing to maturity.

That is why Jesus said, everyone who BEARS FRUIT is pruned by the Father to BEAR MORE FRUIT.

NO not really....the word perfected = MATURED...but I fully expect you to reject that truth

 

[lightbearer]

Thanks for the reply. Let's take a look.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is a promise of sanctification. Cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin in this case is a noun. We can have sin in our lives that needs cleansed that we have not acted upon. For example if I am fornicator yet do not fornicate nor do I through the power of Christ allow my flesh to be feed by dwelling on my desires, but still have the desires pop in for a visit. I have sin. But it is sin that has not been acted upon but non the less needs consented to (confessed) in order that it be cleansed; so it is no longer an issue in my life.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is a promise of sanctification. To get rid of the noun; sin before it becomes the verb; sinning

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sin here is a verb and it is in the past tense.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Here sin is a verb. And it is being used in a directive not to sin. If it were not possible to live a life not acting on our sin then John would not have directed us not to. But he continues to write

And if any man sin, we have an helper towards the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 1:7-10;2:1)

Yes, so in other words we are not sinlessly perfect. You do not have to commit any action to be a sinner, sin includes OMMISIONS. Sin also includes thoughts, motives, and intentions. When one absolutely cross all your t's and dot all your I's infallibly, then you are sinlessly perfect.

Only Jesus lived up to that measure.

So you see what was shared. Great and Praise GOD!

This brings us to Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short (inferior) of the glory of God;

Sin here is past tense, but come short of the glory of GOD is present.

 

[Macabeus]

AMEN.....SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SEALED and SANCTIFIED eternally <---ALL past tense with continuing results..........but hey........workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees MUST HELP JESUS

Someone forgot to read my reply to BillG

I think it's both. Acts 15:9 makes it a past action and 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 1:9 make it a continuous action.

One is cleansing for salvation. The other is continual cleansing for fellowship

Just like we were forgiven once for all for salvation, but 1 John 1:9 speaks of continual cleansing for forgiveness, not for forgiveness unto salvation, which has already been accomplished, but forgiveness in the sense of keeping our garments clean

John 13:10- 10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean..

 

[Macabeus]

NO not really....the word perfected = MATURED...but I fully expect you to reject that truth

I never denied or rejected this. I denied that it had anything to do with what you originally said. You did not say "it takes a period of growth and maturity for one's fruit to be perfected", you said "it takes years of growth and maturity for one to bear anything (i.e Fruit)"

This kind of blatant dishonesty on your part is why I keep pressing the issue. If you would fairly REPRESENT your own words, I would drop the subject. But you can't and you won't.

 

[dcontroversal]

TellTheTriumphOfStrife


We have a happy troll

HAHAHHAHA hilarious..........

 

[Macabeus]

NO not really....the word perfected = MATURED...but I fully expect you to reject that truth

I never denied or rejected this. I denied that it had anything to do with what you originally said. You did not say "it takes a period of growth and maturity for one's fruit to be perfected", you said "it takes years of growth and maturity for one to bear anything (i.e Fruit)"

This kind of blatant dishonesty on your part is why I keep pressing the issue. If you would fairly REPRESENT your own words, I would drop the subject. But you can't and you won't.

 

[dcontroversal]

verb
/vərb/
noun
a word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence, and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence, such as hear, become, happen.

teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

 

[Macabeus]

Yes he believed, that is right causes some problems with the doctrine of the perfect believer doesn't it?

Does all belief save?

Were the people in John 6:66 saved?