Calvinism And Predestination

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GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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its in deuteronomy, they could enter the promised land cause they havent sinned yet.

just like today, someone who cant sin or understand the gospel, they cant be accused of anything.

augustine misinterpeted because of bad latin translation romans 5:12 as all sinned in adam, but its not that.
My friend, it wasn't that they COULDNT SIN but that they were to young to be involved in the particular sin that their parents committed. In fact, Paul uses this same phrase to talk about Jacob and Esau before they were yet born. It t seems to me this Hebrew phrase discusses heirs who are nursing or as yet unborn.

Stop bringing up Augustine and Calvin. They are irrelevant.nwe don't agree with everything they taught, we go to the Bible. They are not relevant to the topic at all. Promise. It's all about the Bible.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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My friend, it wasn't that they COULDNT SIN but that they were to young to be involved in the particular sin that their parents committed. In fact, Paul uses this same phrase to talk about Jacob and Esau before they were yet born. It t seems to me this Hebrew phrase discusses heirs who are nursing or as yet unborn.

Stop bringing up Augustine and Calvin. They are irrelevant.nwe don't agree with everything they taught, we go to the Bible. They are not relevant to the topic at all. Promise. It's all about the Bible.
got it. calvinism has nothing to do with calvin

here is bible then. L of tulip vs bible:

from carm: "Limited atonement is the teaching within Calvinism which states that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect (those chosen for salvation by God) and that He did not bear the sins of every individual who has ever lived. "

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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got it. calvinism has nothing to do with calvin

here is bible then. L of tulip vs bible:

from carm: "Limited atonement is the teaching within Calvinism which states that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect (those chosen for salvation by God) and that He did not bear the sins of every individual who has ever lived. "

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Don’t you know that every man, all men, the whole world, whosoever, etc. only means the elect?;)
 

Melach

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Don’t you know that every man, all men, the whole world, whosoever, etc. only means the elect?;)
what about 1 john 2:2? not for ours only (elect) but for the whole world (also elect)?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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what about 1 john 2:2? not for ours only (elect) but for the whole world (also elect)?
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Which is the elect? All men or those that believe? Maybe both?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Is there anyone here that knows how to read? Honestly this surface level, single sentence exegesis is embarrassing. You call yourselves Christian's and you cannot even read the Bible properly? Let's try this again.

May God be the Judge
The problem with trying to understand predestination is that human beings are bounded in time, while God isn't.

Like a fish who is born in water who cannot really understand what water is, we can only understand causality in a single direction. So I would say, be careful when we try to understand how causality works in the mind of God.

For example, I think its very possible for God to see ahead in time and tell who will accept him and who won't, and yet, all human beings still retain free will to choose whether to accept him or not. Us humans won't be able to understand that.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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what about 1 john 2:2? not for ours only (elect) but for the whole world (also elect)?
I'll get to all these in a moment, but this one is easy. Ours only is a reference to Jews and the world is gentiles. Read the whole letter and this will be plain.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Is there anyone here that knows how to read? Honestly this surface level, single sentence exegesis is embarrassing. You call yourselves Christian's and you cannot even read the Bible properly? Let's try this again.


No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
John 3:13‭-‬21 ESV

See? Plain as day. The phrase 'whoever believes' is the Greek word πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων (pas o pisteuon) and it is more accurately rendered "all that believe" or all the believing ones. In this passage Christ gives us two classes of people. Believers and non-believers. He calls believers the "cosmos" or world. Those are who he is sent for. He was not sent to condemn them, but to save them. They are loved.
Then IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE he tells us about a different group. The non believing ones. They are CONDEMNED ALREADY. it is the opposite for them. They are not loved, they are not sent for, they are not sought. They are CONDEMNED already. John uses the present tense for both groups to show that they are distinct. He describes them in opposite was. Jesus here is making his teaching very very clear. He came for His people, the believing ones. They are whom God loves. The other group isn't. That's calvinism. Plain and simple. You can sit here all day and say we are twisting the scriptures, but YOU are the one twisting. You quote single sentences and make to attempt to interpret them in their context. You plainly ignore THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE so that you can hide from the truth taught there. I've seen your posts and others like you on here that want to say the big mean calvinist' are saying mean and nasty things. We are the bad guys. Well I'll say this. I've shown CLEARLY AND IN CONTEXT that your reading of this passage is wrong. You have quoted a single sentence. I've shown that you are slandering calvinists, and I'd like to hear an apology. I've shown that you have twisted the scriptures out of context. For that you everyone on here an apology. I'll await your response.

May God be the Judge

What is it specifically that you would like to emphasize?



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4





JLB
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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In other passages, where Paul is teaching specifically on God forwknowing his people Paul makes this more explicit.
I'm not sure which passages you're referring to specifically, but I think I have an idea. And here's my thought on some of that:

--Romans 11:2 [vv.2,1,15,11-12] refers specifically to "Israel" : "Hath God cast away His people?"..."God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew"..."For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" [this last portion parallel with Hos5:15-6:3; Dan12:1-4; Isa26:16-21; Ezek37:12-14,20-23; etc]

--Amos 1:2-2:8 gives detail of His precise knowledge re: the sins and judgments of Syria, Philistines, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab; and also that of Israel... but of Israel, He says (in Amos 3:3:1-3), "You only have I known of all the families of the earth..."



[the question in Romans 9-11 being, "what of Israel [NOW] and the promises made to them?"]
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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I already told you I looked this up, across multiple sites and sources. You didn't even read what I said. And I'm lazy? Wow man. That's embarrassing. I feel sorry for you, truly.


Of course I did not read.
With you holding tight to a site devoted to Calvinism, the writing on the wall was more than obvious, you are going to believe only what you want to believe. Even if it is a lie.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
150
35
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The problem with trying to understand predestination is that human beings are bounded in time, while God isn't.

Like a fish who is born in water who cannot really understand what water is, we can only understand causality in a single direction. So I would say, be careful when we try to understand how causality works in the mind of God.

For example, I think its very possible for God to see ahead in time and tell who will accept him and who won't, and yet, all human beings still retain free will to choose whether to accept him or not. Us humans won't be able to understand that.
The problem with trying to understand predestination is that human beings are bounded in time, while God isn't.

Like a fish who is born in water who cannot really understand what water is, we can only understand causality in a single direction. So I would say, be careful when we try to understand how causality works in the mind of God.

For example, I think its very possible for God to see ahead in time and tell who will accept him and who won't, and yet, all human beings still retain free will to choose whether to accept him or not. Us humans won't be able to understand that.
That's a very nice sentiment and all, but it completely contradicts Jesus in John 6. Soooooo yeah
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
150
35
28
Of course I did not read.
With you holding tight to a site devoted to Calvinism, the writing on the wall was more than obvious, you are going to believe only what you want to believe. Even if it is a lie.
Wow. I'm amazed that you are so willing to admit your bias. But thank you for showing everyone that you shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
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Wow. I'm amazed that you are so willing to admit your bias. But thank you for showing everyone that you shouldn't be taken seriously.


No, the bias was committed by you, over a site that claims to follow the principles of Calvinism and would naturally try to deny any wrong doing done by Calvin.

That cannot ^ be any more bias, than choosing teammates based upon skin color.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
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The problem with trying to understand predestination is that human beings are bounded in time, while God isn't.

Like a fish who is born in water who cannot really understand what water is, we can only understand causality in a single direction. So I would say, be careful when we try to understand how causality works in the mind of God.

For example, I think its very possible for God to see ahead in time and tell who will accept him and who won't, and yet, all human beings still retain free will to choose whether to accept him or not. Us humans won't be able to understand that.
Predestination is a beautiful doctrine once the Calvinist goggles are removed and one reads the plain text of Scripture. The Christian has been predestined to be in the image of Christ. That is our destination. We’re not there yet.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We’ve been predestinated unto the adoption. Well, what’s the adoption? It’s not salvation, rather...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is equated to when our bodies will be redeemed. It is the future event we are waiting on, to be conformed into the image of Christ once and for all, body, soul and spirit. We will be officially sons of God. We now can be called sons of God because the future adoption is that certain.

We do not appear what we shall be...the image of His Son.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Predestination is a beautiful doctrine once the Calvinist goggles are removed and one reads the plain text of Scripture. The Christian has been predestined to be in the image of Christ. That is our destination. We’re not there yet.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We’ve been predestinated unto the adoption. Well, what’s the adoption? It’s not salvation, rather...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is equated to when our bodies will be redeemed. It is the future event we are waiting on, to be conformed into the image of Christ once and for all, body, soul and spirit. We will be officially sons of God. We now can be called sons of God because the future adoption is that certain.

We do not appear what we shall be...the image of His Son.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
this sounds good thanks friend
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
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Predestination is a beautiful doctrine once the Calvinist goggles are removed and one reads the plain text of Scripture. The Christian has been predestined to be in the image of Christ. That is our destination. We’re not there yet.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We’ve been predestinated unto the adoption. Well, what’s the adoption? It’s not salvation, rather...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is equated to when our bodies will be redeemed. It is the future event we are waiting on, to be conformed into the image of Christ once and for all, body, soul and spirit. We will be officially sons of God. We now can be called sons of God because the future adoption is that certain.

We do not appear what we shall be...the image of His Son.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Should have added verse 2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
Predestination is a beautiful doctrine once the Calvinist goggles are removed and one reads the plain text of Scripture. The Christian has been predestined to be in the image of Christ. That is our destination. We’re not there yet.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We’ve been predestinated unto the adoption. Well, what’s the adoption? It’s not salvation, rather...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is equated to when our bodies will be redeemed. It is the future event we are waiting on, to be conformed into the image of Christ once and for all, body, soul and spirit. We will be officially sons of God. We now can be called sons of God because the future adoption is that certain.

We do not appear what we shall be...the image of His Son.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
More on this glorious future event that the believer is predestined for:

1 Corinthians 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


I can’t wait for the future adoption where this old mortal, corrupt body will put on immortality in the image of Christ.

Philippians 3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
More Scriptures taken out of context. How can anyone see anything when such is the case?
To be honest? I can't "see" where any "born from above" believer, can not "see" very many similarities to Calvin.
Does this mean Calvin is to be worshiped?
You must be dumber then a box of rocks, if you even THINK, I worship Calvin!
Or Paul, or Peter, or John, or James, or any other Disciple, or Apostle of Christ!
I DO worship "He who SENT Christ", and BELIEVE in Him who SENT Christ!
I BELIEVE Christ! And that which He was SENT to do!
And Pray TO the Father, IN Christ's NAME!


But? My warning is to you, and others, who worship Christ AS God?
Just WHO are YOU worshiping? :unsure:
Seems, somONE/S or someTHING/S, has "pulled the wool, over your sheepy eyes!"