Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit
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First off I didn't say they were all fake. I think the fakes are far less problematic then those that are moved by some other spirit.
Do I need to show you the real?
I can give you an anecdote that I have experienced. In fact, many. And of different varieties. We weren't looking for an experience. It just organically happened, and I praise God for them.
It was my 1st mission trip to the Dominican Republic. There were at least 3 or 4 incredible experiences that had the fingerprints of the Holy Spirit, and His Presence in us. I'll just relate one now.
Most of the D.R. lives in true abject poverty. Our Church had spent yrs building a child development/Orphange/ Church in a particularly poor area. We went twice a year, and things only got done when we were there to provide funds and materials, and skilled labor.
I had never seen TRUE poverty before and it was very humbling. I asked the Dominican group facilitator if it made sense for me, who is NOT a skilled laborer, to spend the money to get me there, with room and board and so on, rather than just SEND that money I spent for travel.
He said, "Look, if it is the Lord's Will, this place is going to get built whether you come or send money or not. BUT these people (native Dominicans) are going to know that their brothers and sisters in Christ, love them enough to spend their money, time, energy, and travel thousands of miles, because you love them in Christ. That is worth more than 10 electricians, carpenters, masons, and plumbers".
There were about 18 of us on that 1st trip I went. Another 20 or so Dominicans helped us with the work.
On the last day, before we were going to leave the village, and head down the mountain, they had us all (Americans) bunch up in a group. Then the 20 or so Dominicans surrounded us and laid hands on us and started earnestly praying for us. But it wasn't the same prayer they all said together. Each one was praying something different. So, different prayers and voices and came from every side of the circle. But this is the real kicker. THEY all prayed in Spanish! 1 or 2 of us had a pretty good handle on Spanish, but I knew VERY little. Yet even though I didn't know what they were praying, I KNEW what they were praying! We could feel the love AND the Holy Spirit amongst us.
No one was slain in the spirit. There were no tongues spoken that SOMEONE couldn't understand or discern. No riotous laughter. No one was rolling on the floor. Just pure love through prayer to the Lord.
Does that qualify?
Do I need to show you the real?
I can give you an anecdote that I have experienced. In fact, many. And of different varieties. We weren't looking for an experience. It just organically happened, and I praise God for them.
It was my 1st mission trip to the Dominican Republic. There were at least 3 or 4 incredible experiences that had the fingerprints of the Holy Spirit, and His Presence in us. I'll just relate one now.
Most of the D.R. lives in true abject poverty. Our Church had spent yrs building a child development/Orphange/ Church in a particularly poor area. We went twice a year, and things only got done when we were there to provide funds and materials, and skilled labor.
I had never seen TRUE poverty before and it was very humbling. I asked the Dominican group facilitator if it made sense for me, who is NOT a skilled laborer, to spend the money to get me there, with room and board and so on, rather than just SEND that money I spent for travel.
He said, "Look, if it is the Lord's Will, this place is going to get built whether you come or send money or not. BUT these people (native Dominicans) are going to know that their brothers and sisters in Christ, love them enough to spend their money, time, energy, and travel thousands of miles, because you love them in Christ. That is worth more than 10 electricians, carpenters, masons, and plumbers".
There were about 18 of us on that 1st trip I went. Another 20 or so Dominicans helped us with the work.
On the last day, before we were going to leave the village, and head down the mountain, they had us all (Americans) bunch up in a group. Then the 20 or so Dominicans surrounded us and laid hands on us and started earnestly praying for us. But it wasn't the same prayer they all said together. Each one was praying something different. So, different prayers and voices and came from every side of the circle. But this is the real kicker. THEY all prayed in Spanish! 1 or 2 of us had a pretty good handle on Spanish, but I knew VERY little. Yet even though I didn't know what they were praying, I KNEW what they were praying! We could feel the love AND the Holy Spirit amongst us.
No one was slain in the spirit. There were no tongues spoken that SOMEONE couldn't understand or discern. No riotous laughter. No one was rolling on the floor. Just pure love through prayer to the Lord.
Does that qualify?
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OK, now in all the long time we have bantered here, why is this the first time I'm hearing this witness??? Why are you focusing on these fake you tube performances, and not sharing this witness instead? Where the eyes lead the head follows, where the head leads the body will go. Truth is not exposed by pointing a finger, but in the witness of events like these. Maybe I've missed something along the way between us, but wow. Way to bury the headline!
Love it!
Love it!
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Thank you for your kind words. I started a thread yrs ago dealing with what might be termed experiencing God's Presence. I truly meant it to be glorifying to our beautiful Savior. There is a danger when we talk about these things that they can be construed as boasting. And knowing that I am not immune to liking a pat on the back, I have to guard my own heart from that.
But THIS thread wasn't really about that. But you are right. There is value in emphasizing the positive. You can check out the thread here. It was the kind of thread I wished more people would tell their "God moments". But alas, we ALL seem to like debate too much.
I think I posted some D.R. video and maybe some from our trip to Panama:
https://christianchat.com/miscellan...utiful-precious-moments-of-gods-grace.133109/
But THIS thread wasn't really about that. But you are right. There is value in emphasizing the positive. You can check out the thread here. It was the kind of thread I wished more people would tell their "God moments". But alas, we ALL seem to like debate too much.
I think I posted some D.R. video and maybe some from our trip to Panama:
https://christianchat.com/miscellan...utiful-precious-moments-of-gods-grace.133109/
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well maybe you have said that also, but since you directly told me that you believe it is by a demonic spirit, a couple of years or so back, I post what you said
you can't squirm out of it.
done with you dude. all you do is reference unrelated and out of context scriptures that would even make MacArthur go..whaaaa?
what is evident biblical behavior is you stating you never said tongues were demonic or that those who spoke in tongues did so by a demonic spirit
please understand I am not longer responding to someone who fudges the truth
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O
You sound like this false prophet (John MacArthur is a professed calvinist) WHO believes (that it’s possible to be saved even after having taken the mark of the beast even though the scriptures specifies the direct opposite)...
I am beginning to see just how close to Satan, Calvinist's really are!!
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So when your argument faslis to stand your resort to the no longer responding position. I leave it to you to determine if what you do is of your self will. Perhaps some are acting at the impulse of demons. I am in no position to even guess on that matter.
When you stand on Gods word there is no reason to squirm. If you do not like the scriptures you will most certainly not find comfort in anything I post.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
When you stand on Gods word there is no reason to squirm. If you do not like the scriptures you will most certainly not find comfort in anything I post.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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what a childish response
when I first joined these forums some time back because this is not my 1st profile, one of the first threads I wrote in was about tongues
and there you were
telling everyone tongues are demonic
you cannot search that far back, but that is what you said
Someone with much better record keeping knows you said that, knows you still think it and knows I am not lying or exaggerating
you don't stand on the Word dude. you trample it.
seriously just putting you on ignore now so find someone else to hate on
when I first joined these forums some time back because this is not my 1st profile, one of the first threads I wrote in was about tongues
and there you were
telling everyone tongues are demonic
you cannot search that far back, but that is what you said
Someone with much better record keeping knows you said that, knows you still think it and knows I am not lying or exaggerating
you don't stand on the Word dude. you trample it.
seriously just putting you on ignore now so find someone else to hate on
Nothing more than a personal attack. Take what I am saying today as a better informed and more acceptable explanation of a sensitive subject. The counterfeit is so much more than the genuine that any rational evaluation raises more hurt than it could ever solve.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Of course some tongues and ecstatic behavior is demonic. Not even sure why this is controversial or a question.
Why would we be told THIS if some weren't acting under demonic influence?
1 John 4:1-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
Love for God and One Another
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess [a]that Jesus [b]Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Why would we be told THIS if some weren't acting under demonic influence?
1 John 4:1-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
Love for God and One Another
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess [a]that Jesus [b]Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
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What is the difference between speaking in tongues by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and many in the Charismatic movement today?
Does a tongue defender here want to claim that Mormonism isn't demonic?
THIS, from the LDS church History website:
Speaking in Tongues
Speaking in tongues was an important aspect of Latter-day Saint spirituality. Heber C. Kimball remembered he and Brigham Young visiting a group of Mormons who spoke in tongues. Brigham and Heber were baptized shortly thereafter, and it was Brigham Young who introduced Joseph Smith to speaking in tongues. With the prophet's endorsement (including his singing in tongues), the practice spread.
It is important to recognize the connection between Joseph Smith's view of ancient languages and his views about the gift of tongues. Joseph Smith saw the "pure" language as being corrupted at the time of the Tower of Babel. A restoration of aspects of this Pure or "Adamic" language was a part of what he envisioned as part of the restoration. Certain words such as the name of God, keywords mentioned in the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham and aspects of the temple endowment ritual were tied to the Adamic tongue. Often, when one spoke in tongues, fellow Mormons thought they were speaking in the Pure or Adamic language.
Items having to do with the translation of ancient languages are not included here, except for a few references to translations of the characters from the Adamic or Pure language.
Speaking in tongues became an integral part of 19th century Mormon spirituality. Brigham Young would sometimes hold conversations with others in tongues. Perhaps because women could not exercise spirituality tied to priesthood, they readily engaged in the practice of speaking and singing in tongues, as well interpreting. Patriarchal blessings often promised the gift, sometimes in conjunction with preaching to American Indians (Lamanites). One interpretation of a song in tongues was included in a collection of revelations, and some blessings were given in tongues. After some time, caution was urged. Interpretation was to accompany the gift, and that which was said was not to be taken as doctrine.
The frequency of the gift slowed and eventually those who commonly spoke in tongues died off. Sometimes, manifestations of the gift in the 20th century were regarded with suspicion. Eventually church materials would define the gift of tongues primarily as the ability for missionaries or others to learn languages to preach the gospel.
Does a tongue defender here want to claim that Mormonism isn't demonic?
THIS, from the LDS church History website:
Speaking in Tongues
Speaking in tongues was an important aspect of Latter-day Saint spirituality. Heber C. Kimball remembered he and Brigham Young visiting a group of Mormons who spoke in tongues. Brigham and Heber were baptized shortly thereafter, and it was Brigham Young who introduced Joseph Smith to speaking in tongues. With the prophet's endorsement (including his singing in tongues), the practice spread.
It is important to recognize the connection between Joseph Smith's view of ancient languages and his views about the gift of tongues. Joseph Smith saw the "pure" language as being corrupted at the time of the Tower of Babel. A restoration of aspects of this Pure or "Adamic" language was a part of what he envisioned as part of the restoration. Certain words such as the name of God, keywords mentioned in the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham and aspects of the temple endowment ritual were tied to the Adamic tongue. Often, when one spoke in tongues, fellow Mormons thought they were speaking in the Pure or Adamic language.
Items having to do with the translation of ancient languages are not included here, except for a few references to translations of the characters from the Adamic or Pure language.
Speaking in tongues became an integral part of 19th century Mormon spirituality. Brigham Young would sometimes hold conversations with others in tongues. Perhaps because women could not exercise spirituality tied to priesthood, they readily engaged in the practice of speaking and singing in tongues, as well interpreting. Patriarchal blessings often promised the gift, sometimes in conjunction with preaching to American Indians (Lamanites). One interpretation of a song in tongues was included in a collection of revelations, and some blessings were given in tongues. After some time, caution was urged. Interpretation was to accompany the gift, and that which was said was not to be taken as doctrine.
The frequency of the gift slowed and eventually those who commonly spoke in tongues died off. Sometimes, manifestations of the gift in the 20th century were regarded with suspicion. Eventually church materials would define the gift of tongues primarily as the ability for missionaries or others to learn languages to preach the gospel.
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so sadly back to tongues again
a person who states all tongues are demonic needs to understand what Jesus regarding attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil
however it seems even that cannot be clarified by some
why is it that certain people, opposed to tongues, only want to focus on what they declare is demonic?
let's search everything but scripture and when the Bible plainly teaches about the gifts through what Paul writes, we turn the conversation to youtube vids and now cults
interesting how some study their Bibles
a person who states all tongues are demonic needs to understand what Jesus regarding attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil
however it seems even that cannot be clarified by some
why is it that certain people, opposed to tongues, only want to focus on what they declare is demonic?
let's search everything but scripture and when the Bible plainly teaches about the gifts through what Paul writes, we turn the conversation to youtube vids and now cults
interesting how some study their Bibles
U
I wonder about ecstatic utterance be demonic?
I am not sure of the need for a counterfeit since "ecstatic utterance/speech" is not a spiritual gift, it is a psychological phenomena.
Anyone can do it if they are exposed to it.
Now some of the other behaviours like shaking and rolling on the ground, may be more difficult to know the source, however I think this is also some heightened state emotional state that has been activated a great deal of the time.
The girl on the street that was giggling in the one video in another thread, that was very concerning?
I am not sure of the need for a counterfeit since "ecstatic utterance/speech" is not a spiritual gift, it is a psychological phenomena.
Anyone can do it if they are exposed to it.
Now some of the other behaviours like shaking and rolling on the ground, may be more difficult to know the source, however I think this is also some heightened state emotional state that has been activated a great deal of the time.
The girl on the street that was giggling in the one video in another thread, that was very concerning?
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Outside of the momentary, feel good experience, many of these people seem to be bitter, angry, vindictive, and joyless. I feel sad for them. Then add in that many of these "Pastors" mix in a heavy prosperity gospel that fleeces them of money they can't afford to waste so a Pastor can live an outlandishly lavish lifestyle, and they end up worse than when they started.
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here is a question that needs to be asked but I am not asking
just something to think about
why is the experience of someone who posts youtube vids and says we cannot know if tongues are of God or not a valid experience and the experience of those who speak in tongues and attest to the benefits not valid?
it's remarkable and a real standout about the thought processes going on here IMO
personal insults and sarcastic comments and rude posts are the usual response to drawing attention to what cessationists do but they have to answer for that behavior and not to me either
so, if you get a good feeling it's God. now we know. that is not discernment though
just something to think about
why is the experience of someone who posts youtube vids and says we cannot know if tongues are of God or not a valid experience and the experience of those who speak in tongues and attest to the benefits not valid?
it's remarkable and a real standout about the thought processes going on here IMO
personal insults and sarcastic comments and rude posts are the usual response to drawing attention to what cessationists do but they have to answer for that behavior and not to me either
so, if you get a good feeling it's God. now we know. that is not discernment though