Unitarianism (Anti-Trinity)

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Scotth1960

Guest
#41
Matthew 28:19 does not support a trinity,but actually refutes a trinity,by telling us that Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,who created all things,came in flesh,and dwells in the saints,which the Bible declares,so we don't try to make a trinity out of the titles of God.

The book of Luke says baptism is to be done in Jesus' name.

In the book of Acts,Jews,Samaritans,and Gentiles,were all baptized in Jesus' name.

Everything we do in word and deed,we are to do in Jesus' name.

Jesus is the only saving name given to us under heaven.

Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,are titles to designate the three relationships God has with mankind.

Father-parent of the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship with the saints.
Holy Ghost-God's invisible relationship with the saints.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The Father said that one day He would reveal His new name to the Jews and speak to them.Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Bible says the Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Bible says the Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the one who created all things,came in flesh,and dwells in the saints.

That is all Oneness Pentecostalism, or Oneness doctrine, and it is heresy.
Jesus is the name of the Son. Jesus is not the name of the Father or of the Spirit. The Father and Spirit are distinct Divine Persons and are not the same Person as God the Son, Jesus. See on Google some more to find out why Oneness doctrine and Oneness Pentecostalism are heresies. Trinitarianism is the truth. Sabellianism and Semi-Sabellianism are heresies.



 
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zackabba

Guest
#42
That is all Oneness Pentecostalism, or Oneness doctrine, and it is heresy.
Jesus is the name of the Son. Jesus is not the name of the Father or of the Spirit. The Father and Spirit are distinct Divine Persons and are not the same Person as God the Son, Jesus. See on Google some more to find out why Oneness doctrine and Oneness Pentecostalism are heresies. Trinitarianism is the truth. Sabellianism and Semi-Sabellianism are heresies.

Or you could just read the Bible :)


Trinitarianism is True. God is Truth.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#43
Or you could just read the Bible :)


Trinitarianism is True. God is Truth.
It is a bit more proper to say Trinitarianism is true. God is Truth. Yes. But the truth is more than just Jesus. Jesus is the truth. The Father is the truth. The Spirit is the truth. God is the truth. His Church is the pillar and ground (foundation) of the truth. Take care!
:)
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#44
Floyd, you should look at this page for more information on this (Gen 1:23):

View topic - The Old Testament Concept of God • Evidence for God from Science

Yes, Genesis 1:23 is referring to one God. One God in, as we would later see, three Persons (though I guess you could look at Gen 1:2 and Genesis 18 to see the other two persons, the Word and the Spirit...in Genesis 18, I realize this is not referring to the Trinity, by the way. The other two were angels, but the Lord physically did come to Abraham. He also was said to have walked in the Garden of Eden.)






And you're right, I don't believe people in the OT understood the Trinity, or tri-unity, as we do now. That doesn't mean that God wasn't and isn't a Trinity, though, as you know.
I think you are missing the entire point with Genesis 18. The fact God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, Abraham saw God, walked with Him, etc in Genesis 18, Jacob saw God face to face in Genesis 32, Isaiah saw the Lord in Isaiah 6, all of Israel saw the God of Israel in Exodus 24.

Yet, this same God is "unseen", this "invisible God" is "visible", the issue isn't about how many angels were in Genesis 18, it's the fact God appeared to Abraham. So how can this unseen God be invisible and yet visible? Seen and yet unseen?

So, as I can see you have a great zeal for the Word and for God I am confident you will be able fill in the blanks as to who appeared and who is seen.

Also this may be of great interest: JewishEncyclopedia.com - MEMRA
 
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zackabba

Guest
#45
I think you are missing the entire point with Genesis 18. The fact God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, Abraham saw God, walked with Him, etc in Genesis 18, Jacob saw God face to face in Genesis 32, Isaiah saw the Lord in Isaiah 6, all of Israel saw the God of Israel in Exodus 24.

Yet, this same God is "unseen", this "invisible God" is "visible", the issue isn't about how many angels were in Genesis 18, it's the fact God appeared to Abraham. So how can this unseen God be invisible and yet visible? Seen and yet unseen?

So, as I can see you have a great zeal for the Word and for God I am confident you will be able fill in the blanks as to who appeared and who is seen.

Also this may be of great interest: JewishEncyclopedia.com - MEMRA

Yep. God appeared to them in, I'm guessing, human form.

How can He be seen and unseen? Well, is He not omnipresent? So, if He appeared in human form as Jesus Christ, couldn't He also still be omipresent? Yes.
 
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zackabba

Guest
#46
Oh, and I looked at that website. Pretty interestin stuff...especially that "Memra" is used as "God's right hand." :)
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#47
G0DS CHURH THEN IS NOT GODS CHURCH NOW , BIG BIG DIFFERENCE.
NO DIFFERENCE. THE CHURCH DOES NOT CHANGE. CATHOLICISM CHANGED IN 1054 AD. PROTESTANTISM CHANGED IN 1517 AND 1521 AD. PENTECOSTALISM CHANGED AROUND 1900 AD. EASTERN ORTHODOXY DOES NOT CHANGE, BUT THE TERM "EASTERN ORTHODOXY" JUST IS AN ADJECTIVAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CHURCH. IT'S EASTERN, BECAUSE THE CHURCH AROSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST; IT'S ORTHODOX, AS THE CHURCH TEACHES TRUE DOCTRINE AND RIGHT WORSHIP OF GOD.
 
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zackabba

Guest
#48
NO DIFFERENCE. THE CHURCH DOES NOT CHANGE. CATHOLICISM CHANGED IN 1054 AD. PROTESTANTISM CHANGED IN 1517 AND 1521 AD. PENTECOSTALISM CHANGED AROUND 1900 AD. EASTERN ORTHODOXY DOES NOT CHANGE, BUT THE TERM "EASTERN ORTHODOXY" JUST IS AN ADJECTIVAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CHURCH. IT'S EASTERN, BECAUSE THE CHURCH AROSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST; IT'S ORTHODOX, AS THE CHURCH TEACHES TRUE DOCTRINE AND RIGHT WORSHIP OF GOD.
Scott, I'd rather you take this to another forum...here's an idea, maybe make a forum entitled "What is the true Church" ?
I'm not trying to anger you about this, but I'm just trying to keep this on topic (instead of it branching out into different arguments).

Thank you brother, and God Bless
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#49
Thank you Floyd.

Man...I really can't believe so many people deny the Trinity...
I can't believe so many are indoctrinated into default beliefs they can't defend or express beyond a creed.

Trinity doctrine can be affirmed in part. It isn't either/or. I affirm all but primarily one point. There is a deeper understanding of truth. Trinity is incomplete in this one point. The same is true of Oneness, and they both CAN be easily reconciled to the truth. All "threeness" isn't Trinity.

How do you take Genesis 1:26 into your belief? Because "our likeness" doesn't include angels, which would make them equal with God.

How do you explain that one away?
A common occurence of a Hebrew plural pronoun with a singular verb in one verse is not even part of a scholar's apologetic for Trinity. Some refer to it as Pluralis Excellentiae; an intensifier, not a quantifier. It's grammatical, not substantial.

So many people want to be able to fully comprehend God, to put Him in a little box.
Trinity is a box, but Trinitarians think THAT box is fine. There's much more revelation about who God is if one puts aside doctrines of men to receive it by the Spirit. Read 1 Corinthians 2. God didn't come to conceal Himself; He came to reveal Himself.

He is one being in three persons.
No. God is not three "persons". Please specifically show God is "person(s)" from scripture. No inference, no deduction, no induction, no extrapolation, no interpolation. The Logos is the intelligent thought and expression of God. The Son is the express image of His substance.

Substantiate that God is three "persons".

Yes, our brain explodes when we really, really think about it,
Yet you adamantly "know" that God is three "persons" as a Trinity; absolutely declaring what you admitedly don't even begin to understand. No mystery, no unsurety, no humble searching... just blind assertion based on indoctrination and association.

but He's not supposed to be fully comprehensible, is He?
We're supposed to search the deep mysteries of God. Is that how you came to belief in Trinity? I'd say somebody taught you from early in your church experience, since it took hundreds of Bishops many years to formulate the doctrine. You didn't just go to the Word one day and say, "Look, I found a Trinity. God is three hupostases of one ousia.". Mostly cuz it ain't in there. It's inferred.

(And I'm going easy on you because of your age and obvious zeal for God. Why not learn before declaring your final definition of God..)
 
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zackabba

Guest
#50
What does Genesis 1:23 mean, then?


Also,



Please quote Romans 9:5 for me. Thank you. and romans 8:9-11 and verse 1

Oh, and Philippians 2:5-11...and Titus 2:10-14 (especially verse 13.), and 1:1-4.

And then compare verse 10, 13, and Titus 3:4. The Father is distinguished from the Son (look at 3:6), and yet they're both titled Saviour.

(on a side note, we can see the Spirit as a person by looking at Acts 2:4, where He, the divine counsuler, gave the apostles utterance)

And not to overwhelm you, but also look at Acts 2:34-39. Who has been made Lord? Christ. Who is the Lord according to verse 39? God. Our God.
 
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zackabba

Guest
#51
Oh, and thanks Shwagga! I've actually been looking for that debate.
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#52
Awesome man, hope it blesses you.
 
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zackabba

Guest
#53
I can't believe so many are indoctrinated into default beliefs they can't defend or express beyond a creed.

Yeah, me neither!



Trinity doctrine can be affirmed in part. It isn't either/or. I affirm all but primarily one point.

Alrighty then.

There is a deeper understanding of truth.

...which is Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

Trinity is incomplete in this one point. The same is true of Oneness, and they both CAN be easily reconciled to the truth. All "threeness" isn't Trinity.

Well, of course you're going to say it's incomplete at that one point. Don't back it up with Scripture, just say it is.

No, I'm pretty sure the docrine of Trinity and Oneness contradict each other.

Threeness? Who's talking about Threeness? There's only One God, not three.





A common occurence of a Hebrew plural pronoun with a singular verb in one verse is not even part of a scholar's apologetic for Trinity. Some refer to it as Pluralis Excellentiae; an intensifier, not a quantifier. It's grammatical, not substantial.

Alright.



Trinity is a box, but Trinitarians think THAT box is fine.

How is it a box?

There's much more revelation about who God is if one puts aside doctrines of men to receive it by the Spirit. Read 1 Corinthians 2. God didn't come to conceal Himself; He came to reveal Himself.

Actually, I see the Trinity in 1 Corinthians 2.

Right, I totally agree with you, we should not follow a man's doctrine (1 Corinthians 3:4-9)

No one comprehends on the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11)


No. God is not three "persons". Please specifically show God is "person(s)" from scripture. No inference, no deduction, no induction, no extrapolation, no interpolation. The Logos is the intelligent thought and expression of God. The Son is the express image of His substance.

Substantiate that God is three "persons".

...I have, in earlier Scriptures that I've posted.

Actually just look in 1 Corinthains 2, the very chapter you showed tell me to look at.



Yet you adamantly "know" that God is three "persons" as a Trinity; absolutely declaring what you admitedly don't even begin to understand. No mystery, no unsurety, no humble searching... just blind assertion based on indoctrination and association.

I know nothing except what He has revealed to me by His word.

We all want to be able to understand the vastness, the fullness of God. This is one reason why Muslims reject the Trinity as well. "God is not the author of confusion (actually it's calamity, but I'll just use a faulty argument as example)," they say.

I wonder who is blindly asserting statements...it's either me or you...well, it's actually both of us.
Because only God is Truth, and only He can see into the future, while we cannot.



We're supposed to search the deep mysteries of God. Is that how you came to belief in Trinity? I'd say somebody taught you from early in your church experience, since it took hundreds of Bishops many years to formulate the doctrine. You didn't just go to the Word one day and say, "Look, I found a Trinity. God is three hupostases of one ousia.". Mostly cuz it ain't in there. It's inferred.


Early in my church experience? I'm sorry to say (and I truly am), I haven't had much of a "church experience." Everything I've learned is from looking at God's Word, what He's revealed to me through Scripture.


And I'm sorry, but have you asked God to fill you up today to bear fruit? Because the fruit you're bearing surely isn't the fruit of the Spirit.

(And I'm going easy on you because of your age and obvious zeal for God. Why not learn before declaring your final definition of God..)

Let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance (Proverbs 1:5)

I am nothing compared to Christ, my wisdom is below nothing compared to His, there's no word for how dumb I am compared to Him and His Majesty...

...but I think you're underestimating me a bit. I've done a bit more research than you may think, and a bit more reading. And a lot of praying and crying and crying out to God for the Truth.

God doesn't have a definition. He transcends definition. I can only look at what Scripture says about His nature. And the Spirit says that He's one being, three persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#54
I can't believe so many are indoctrinated into default beliefs they can't defend or express beyond a creed.

Yeah, me neither!



Trinity doctrine can be affirmed in part. It isn't either/or. I affirm all but primarily one point.

Alrighty then.

There is a deeper understanding of truth.

...which is Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

Trinity is incomplete in this one point. The same is true of Oneness, and they both CAN be easily reconciled to the truth. All "threeness" isn't Trinity.

Well, of course you're going to say it's incomplete at that one point. Don't back it up with Scripture, just say it is.

No, I'm pretty sure the docrine of Trinity and Oneness contradict each other.

Threeness? Who's talking about Threeness? There's only One God, not three.





A common occurence of a Hebrew plural pronoun with a singular verb in one verse is not even part of a scholar's apologetic for Trinity. Some refer to it as Pluralis Excellentiae; an intensifier, not a quantifier. It's grammatical, not substantial.

Alright.



Trinity is a box, but Trinitarians think THAT box is fine.

How is it a box?

There's much more revelation about who God is if one puts aside doctrines of men to receive it by the Spirit. Read 1 Corinthians 2. God didn't come to conceal Himself; He came to reveal Himself.

Actually, I see the Trinity in 1 Corinthians 2.

Right, I totally agree with you, we should not follow a man's doctrine (1 Corinthians 3:4-9)

No one comprehends on the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11)


No. God is not three "persons". Please specifically show God is "person(s)" from scripture. No inference, no deduction, no induction, no extrapolation, no interpolation. The Logos is the intelligent thought and expression of God. The Son is the express image of His substance.

Substantiate that God is three "persons".

...I have, in earlier Scriptures that I've posted.

Actually just look in 1 Corinthains 2, the very chapter you showed tell me to look at.



Yet you adamantly "know" that God is three "persons" as a Trinity; absolutely declaring what you admitedly don't even begin to understand. No mystery, no unsurety, no humble searching... just blind assertion based on indoctrination and association.

I know nothing except what He has revealed to me by His word.

We all want to be able to understand the vastness, the fullness of God. This is one reason why Muslims reject the Trinity as well. "God is not the author of confusion (actually it's calamity, but I'll just use a faulty argument as example)," they say.

I wonder who is blindly asserting statements...it's either me or you...well, it's actually both of us.
Because only God is Truth, and only He can see into the future, while we cannot.



We're supposed to search the deep mysteries of God. Is that how you came to belief in Trinity? I'd say somebody taught you from early in your church experience, since it took hundreds of Bishops many years to formulate the doctrine. You didn't just go to the Word one day and say, "Look, I found a Trinity. God is three hupostases of one ousia.". Mostly cuz it ain't in there. It's inferred.


Early in my church experience? I'm sorry to say (and I truly am), I haven't had much of a "church experience." Everything I've learned is from looking at God's Word, what He's revealed to me through Scripture.


And I'm sorry, but have you asked God to fill you up today to bear fruit? Because the fruit you're bearing surely isn't the fruit of the Spirit.

(And I'm going easy on you because of your age and obvious zeal for God. Why not learn before declaring your final definition of God..)

Let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance (Proverbs 1:5)

I am nothing compared to Christ, my wisdom is below nothing compared to His, there's no word for how dumb I am compared to Him and His Majesty...

...but I think you're underestimating me a bit. I've done a bit more research than you may think, and a bit more reading. And a lot of praying and crying and crying out to God for the Truth.

God doesn't have a definition. He transcends definition. I can only look at what Scripture says about His nature. And the Spirit says that He's one being, three persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Alrighty. Leaving you to your over-estimation of yourself.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#56
Alrighty. Leaving you to your over-estimation of yourself.
Dear Friends, Matthew 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
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zackabba

Guest
#57
Dear Friends, Matthew 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
And , besides that, just look at the whole context of the Bible!

Truly seek out God, and you will find Him if you have not found Him. This is to everyone.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#58
Matthew 28:19 was a later addition to the text, I believe (no scholar like James White or Michael Brown cite this in debate, nor anywhere else), Just as Mark 16:9-20.

This doesn't defeat the concept of the Trinity, but just wanted to point that out.

Dear Zackabba, Here is what Matthew 28:19 says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" MATTHEW 28:19 ONT Orthodox New Testament Volume 1. There is no comment on this verse in the ONT that this verse is in any way, shape, or form, "a later addition to the text". If it were, the Greek Orthodox Church would know that, as she is the Church that Christ founded. Therefore your point about scholars doesn't carry any authority behind it. Where is the wise man or the scholar of this age? Has not God made foolishness the wisdom of the wise? But for us, Christ the foolishness of God, and the wisdom of God, the foolishness of the cross is wiser than the wisdom of men. No! This verse, Matthew 28:19 is holy Scripture. We should not doubt it. To your credit, you said, "was a later addition to the text, I believe ..." You did not say, "I know." Well, I know and I believe that everything in Scripture is Scripture. It has been shown to me that the GOC is a reliable witness to Christ. I do not doubt the verses in John about the adulterous woman, or in Mark 16. The only questionable verse is 1 John 5:7, and this is in some manuscripts, so it could be a scribal oversight; it could be an authentic reading preserved in a minority of manuscripts. ISTM, the NT is holy and complete, but in its transmission, scribes could have made a few errors. If this is the only error, it is remarkable. I believe this may be the only case where it is not certain what happened. Anyway, the verse in question does not teach any false doctrine, so it could be faithful to the original. No. Anyway. Matthew 28:19 is truthful and is the original NT Scripture. I also believe that longer ending of Mark 16 is Scripture. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS If you want an accurate New Testament (NT), see: THE ORTHODOX NEW TESTAMENT. 2 vols. Copyright 2000 Holy Apostles Convent Post Office Box 3118, Buena Vista, CO 81211
http:// Holy Apostles Convent You can order this Bible from GOOGLE and Amazon.com or from Holy Apostles Convent Take care.
This is a high-quality Bible that is faithful to God and faithful to God's Church. We need both kinds of faithfulness in today's relativistic age, as postmodernism corrupts everything, and the Reformation has left Christians alone and "as orphans".

 
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zackabba

Guest
#59
Alright, I believe ya. Thanks man :)
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#60
Dear Friends, Matthew 28:19 substantiates and proves that the one God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
There is no indication of persons there or elsewhere. It is inferred.

Would you please provide scripture that says "persons". Not inferrence, but scripture. It is presumptive to superimpose an extra-biblical word upon the Word. Scripture with the actual word person in reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Thank you, Brother.