Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[garee]

No,,, I'm not saying Jesus is hiding anything. Everyone thinks that the disciples are asking about his second coming so in post 462 and 464 I gave some Scriptures from after the Crucifixion showing the reactions of the same disciples to him being killed. Jesus does mention his return in the answer he gave but they did not understand he was going to be killed at that time and so I gave the scriptures from the bible showing this also. They ask about the sign of his coming as the Messiah/king and they thought he was not going to die
but was there to stay.

Thanks for explaining.

I would ask in regard to the question ; (1) "when" (time) and (2) "what" shall be the sign of thy coming"(what it looks like) if not the second coming then which? and (3) other part of the question and the end of the world. Which speaks to the last day, the day of the lord.

He gives us signs of observation or signs of the time as business as usual .But does not give the information of the last day desiring we walk by faith .He simply say he who have the faith to believe are those that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.No dates. Like in the time on Noah . The last day used 6 times in the book of John .

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mathew 24:3-13

 

[iamsoandso]

What are your thoughts about what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24:15 (the part in bold) -

"Therefore when you shall see 'the abomination [singular] of desolation,' having been spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place--the one reading, let him understand--"

[Q: what would be "the holy place" ? (at that future time)]



I believe this must speak to the "abomination [singular]" in Daniel chpt 12 [this is not to say that Dan9:27 is wholly unrelated, but the word is plural there] -

Dan12 [kjv] - "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination [singular] that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Dan12 [bsb] - "11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination [singular] of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days."


What do you believe Jesus is referring to by saying [see] "standing in the holy place" ? (and Daniel's words which say "set up").

And do you see this as relating to 2Th2:4?


[I'm asking those who blv this is future, as I do]

The things I have said in the post prior to this,he(antichrist) removes his kingdom into that city(Jerusalem) and many believe it to be Christ our Lord and his temple(he pretends to be Christ and duplicates what is written of him).

 

[iamsoandso]

Thanks for explaining.

I would ask in regard to the question ; (1) "when" (time) and (2) "what" shall be the sign of thy coming"(what it looks like) if not the second coming then which? and (3) other part of the question and the end of the world. Which speaks to the last day, the day of the lord.

He gives us signs of observation or signs of the time as business as usual .But does not give the information of the last day desiring we walk by faith .He simply say he who have the faith to believe are those that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.No dates. Like in the time on Noah . The last day used 6 times in the book of John .

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mathew 24:3-13

They were confused because he told them the temple would be destroyed and they thought he was going to sit in that temple(the one he said would be destroyed) so they couldn't see how he could be the Messiah unless he ruled from that temple and the age of the rule of the four beast from Daniel ended.

So they could not see the sign of his coming if the temple was destroyed because to them the sign was that he ruled from it in Jerusalem and Rome was defeated by him and the nations all came under his rule also(one age end and the next begin). Judas heard Jesus say this and came to the conclusion that he wasn't the Messiah because he also saw that temple as part of the sign and betrayed him.

See post# 462 and 464 thy didn't understand his death or the concept of a second coming until Luke 24:45 and Acts 1:11 so could not have ask him about his second coming at the time of Matthew 24:3.

 

[iamsoandso]

Age "end of an AGE of time" https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm Jews believed seven days of creation related to seven days or thousand years (toldot) Genesis 2:4...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The things I have said in the post prior to this,he(antichrist) removes his kingdom into that city(Jerusalem) and many believe it to be Christ our Lord and his temple(he pretends to be Christ and duplicates what is written of him).

Yes, so I agree (kind of... I think )... so are you saying that where Jesus said "[when...see...standing] in the holy place," that He could have as easily stated [meaning, same] "standing in the holy city [Jerusalem]" (like, when they "see" that)?? And not a more narrow [particular] place [within Jerusalem]? Coz it just says [I think] "holy place" (and not "THE holy place/places" [which always refers to "specifically that part of the temple or tabernacle which is called 'the holy place' ")?? However, 2Th2:4 does say something more specific, it seems... right?

Just wondering...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I had mean to add to my earlier post about Daniel 12:11... [the following]:

I believe this must speak to the "abomination [singular]" in Daniel chpt 12 [this is not to say that Dan9:27 is wholly unrelated, but the word is plural there] -
Dan12 [kjv] - "11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination [singular] that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
Dan12 [bsb] - "11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination [singular] of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days."

I think this is likely not saying "FROM ____ TO/UNTIL ___ [there will be so many days]," (like Dan9:25 did!), but is instead still answering the Qs from vv.6 and 8, "how long to the end of THESE wonders" [just described, and involving "Israel"], and "what [shall be] the end of THESE [things]?"... so it seems to me that the words in verse 11 are saying "[the time involving when] the dailies removed/ceased[?] and the AOD SET UP [<--these occurring at the same time] will be 1290 days [that follow that point in time, that those two things occur... IOW 1290 days remaining (to a certain other point surrounding the end [of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs])]"... does that make sense??

 

[azamzimtoti]

im looking into this dwight pentecost things to come. eternally-gratefull recommends it to me i like eternally-gratefull he is a friendly guy

Yeah, Dwight will put you straight with his statements such as "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament" and an "interruption of God's program for Israel".

These are the bogus ideas that form the rotten root of dispensation-al-ism and totally without merit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I believe he likely meant "the Church which is His body" (so the word "church" is indeed used in reference to the OT assembly [see all of the context of Acts 7:37-44, esp v.38] as well as the Acts 19 mob/group of ppl [these weren't necessarily "saved" persons])



["the Church which is His body" (all saved persons in "this present age [singular]") is made up of ONLY believers/saints]

 

[UnderGrace]

Yeah, Dwight will put you straight with his statements such as "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament" and an "interruption of God's program for Israel".

These are the bogus ideas that form the rotten root of dispensation-al-ism and totally without merit.

He had some strange ideas.....


By way of summary, it may be said that as far as the Old Testament teaching on the new covenant is concerned, the covenant was made with the Jewish people. Its period of fulfillment is yet future beginning when the Deliverer shall come and continuing throughout all eternity. Its provisions for the nation Israel are glorious, and they all rest and depend on the very Word of God.

The Gentiles will be Israel’s servants during that age (Isa. 14:1-2; 49:22-23; 60:14; 61:5; Zech. 8:22-23). The nations which usurped authority over Israel in past ages find that downtrodden people exalted and themselves in subjection in their kingdom. The Gentiles that are in the millennium will have experienced conversion prior to admission

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 2249-2252). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let me just add to my previous post... This is not to say I agree with 100% of what Pentecost said in his book (I think some of the earlier authors/commentators were more accurate than he, in places), but "dispensational teaching" does see a distinction between "Jews" and "Gentiles" (NOT IN "THIS PRESENT AGE [singular]" IN "THE BODY"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," wherein there is NO DISTINCTION of Jews or Gentiles in our standing before God "IN CHRIST")--for example, Matthew 24:14 is not US sharing "the gospel" NOW... Matt24:14[26:13] is the "INVITATION" to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom that will "go out" DURING the trib years (and delivered by the faithful/believing remnant of Jews/Israel, who will have COME TO FAITH following our Rapture--this is a matter of "right application of Scripture" [aka "correctly apportioning"] rather than applying it all to US, willy nilly)

[an example: where the 144,000 are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" in the trib years]

 

[iamsoandso]

Yes, so I agree (kind of... I think )... so are you saying that where Jesus said "[when...see...standing] in the holy place," that He could have as easily stated [meaning, same] "standing in the holy city [Jerusalem]" (like, when they "see" that)?? And not a more narrow [particular] place [within Jerusalem]? Coz it just says [I think] "holy place" (and not "THE holy place/places" [which always refers to "specifically that part of the temple or tabernacle which is called 'the holy place' ")?? However, 2Th2:4 does say something more specific, it seems... right?

Just wondering...

I see the temple of God as 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and John 2:19-25 being the head of it(Holy Spirit dwells in it), and the antichrist sets up an temple in it's place/stead which is an abomination to the true temple(a wing,he cannot enter into it) in a place where it ought not be.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see the temple of God as 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and John 2:19-25 being the head of it(Holy Spirit dwells in it), and the antichrist sets up an temple in it's place/stead which is an abomination to the true temple(a wing,he cannot enter into it) in a place where it ought not be.

I'll go re-read what your response was about [my comments regarding] the definite article ('the') not being used in any references where "temple" refers to US (His "BODY")… to see how you responded to that point. BBlater

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm related to the Seed spiritually.

The war is spiritual. No need to ignore these facts.

Doesn't matter...the seed of the woman is literal and referencing JESUS that was BORN of a WOMAN and what did John say about those that deny he came in the FLESH while spiritualizing everything away?........yep you got it.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, Dwight will put you straight with his statements such as "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament" and an "interruption of God's program for Israel".

These are the bogus ideas that form the rotten root of dispensation-al-ism and totally without merit.

yeah I should have known. Have you even read his book, or just saying what you have been told??

Its ok thought, I told Melach I did not agree with everything DP said. But to do what you just did wow man, like wow.

Should we not test all spirits? let the man read and if he does not like it he can say so.

This is one of the reasons I hate this subject, brother and sister tearing each other up all because they disagree..

What is a fact is you have not proven anything with this post. You slammed a group. called it names. and used nothign to back up what you said. its sad.

I knew I should not have come in, took a break. I should have stayed away!

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Not sure what is meant by spiritualize something away.? Did you mean offer a spiritual understanding of that parable as you did?

No.....spiritualizing away the fact that the seed of the woman is literal and points to JESUS being born of a WOMAN and COMING in FLESH

Was he born of flesh? YEP
Was he tempted in the flesh? YEP
Did he walk in the flesh? YEP
Was he robed in flesh? YEP
Was he beaten in the flesh? YEP
Did he suffer in the flesh? YEP
Did he die in the FLESH? YEP

ALL who deny the FLESH aspect of CHRIST are called ANTI-Christs........ j

 

[azamzimtoti]

yeah I should have known. Have you even read his book, or just saying what you have been told??

I have the book.

What is a fact is you have not proven anything with this post. You slammed a group. called it names. and used nothing to back up what you said. its sad.

I just stated what Dwight said, simple enough quotes from him. Both statements he made are totally untrue. And I can backup my claim from both the NT and OT.

 

[UnderGrace]

yeah I should have known. Have you even read his book, or just saying what you have been told??

Its ok thought, I told Melach I did not agree with everything DP said. But to do what you just did wow man, like wow.

Should we not test all spirits? let the man read and if he does not like it he can say so.

This is one of the reasons I hate this subject, brother and sister tearing each other up all because they disagree..

What is a fact is you have not proven anything with this post. You slammed a group. called it names. and used nothign to back up what you said. its sad.

I knew I should not have come in, took a break. I should have stayed away!

I thought things were going quite well actually.

Why is being critical of a doctrine so offensive?

People can be critical of OSAS and the teachers if they want to, I rather they express their ideas so I can test it against scripture and be sure.... and they can tell me about an author if there are problems so I can make my own judgments.

I used to think Paul Ellis was worthy of my attention until a few people pointed our a few things and then I was more cautious.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I had to google Paul Ellis, never heard of the guy before.

 

[UnderGrace]

Just as God allowed Satan to test Job he allowed him to set up modern Israel. It is part of Bible Prophecy in that it is part of the
strong delusion involving the antichrist. The Bible teaches that a remnant of Israel will be saved not because of ethnic considerations
but of belief in Christ as Lord and Messiah. It says they will look upon him who they pierced. This happens at Christs second coming

So you think the Antichrist is still to come?

Is this a dual fulfillment?

Is Matthew 24:15 still to come? If so where do you see the transition from what is fulfilled and what is not fulfilled?

 

[Deade]

What do you think they ask the Lord in Matthew 24:3(in light of post # 462 & 464)?

They were expecting His second coming, in power and glory. They did not have the HS as of yet. After Pentecost they settled down and got about their Father's business. Reminds me of many trying to steer the Lord to do things their way.