I never said I don't believe in OSAS. Read the title of the thread. It says that I am a believer who believes that God preserves us.
Question for OSAS people. (from a believer who believes that God does indeed preserve us)
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I never said I don't believe in OSAS. Read the title of the thread. It says that I am a believer who believes that God preserves us.
TO be clear, THIS thread has NOTHING to do with losing salvation. Please do not build strawmen here.
The question was to OSAS believers, who don't believe you can lose your salvation, and so far the vast majority disagree with the premise of the OP, which premise you keep trying to defend.
Yes, the doctrine of "perserverance of the saints" also known as the security of the believer, is what I hold and it does not teach losable salvation. Thank you for posting and keep it coming, I appreciate your feedback.
I agree that there is a corrupt form of OSAS which ammounts to antinomianism, and there is correct form of OSAS, which is the doctrine of the security of the believer, also known as the perserverance of the saints.
Guojing, the words below are not addressed to you, (I know that you are sincere and not doing what the person I am addressing has tried to do), they are addressed to someone else.
Just to clarify, the intent of this thread is not to ask whether a person can lose their salvation or not. I am not trying to prove one can lose their salvation, and the OP presupposes security of the believer. If you want to argue losable salvation, feel free, but please don't insinuate that those who believe in perserverance of the saints believe in losable salvation, as some did in another thread. That would be a gross misrepresentation
Just to clarify, the intent of this thread is not to ask whether a person can lose their salvation or not. I am not trying to prove one can lose their salvation, and the OP presupposes security of the believer. If you want to argue losable salvation, feel free, but please don't insinuate that those who believe in perserverance of the saints believe in losable salvation, as some did in another thread. That would be a gross misrepresentation
Yes, he was saying that Christians are butterflies now, not caterpillars, which means because of the New Birth they have a new diet. That is a VERY GOOD analogy.
.BTW, the answer to the questions above in red is no.
We are kept by the power of God through faith. (1 Peter 1:5)
but I do not think a true believer would renounce Christ, and if they hypothetically did (which is unthinkable to me, but for the sake of argument I will allow it, though I do not believe it) I think that God would bring them to repent of that, (if they were true believers to begin with.)
Blessings.
.BTW, the answer to the questions above in red is no.
We are kept by the power of God through faith. (1 Peter 1:5)
but I do not think a true believer would renounce Christ, and if they hypothetically did (which is unthinkable to me, but for the sake of argument I will allow it, though I do not believe it) I think that God would bring them to repent of that, (if they were true believers to begin with.)
Blessings.
Yes, I hardly know of any Christian who explicitly "renounce Christ". They usually just stop attending church altogether and stop reading the Bible and stop renewing their minds, stop praying etc etc.
Do you consider these people still saved in the end?
Of course not. OSAS means that at the moment of salvation God will break both of your legs so you can't jump out of the boat, or blaspheme, or turn away from the Lord, or any of the other things mentioned in Hebrews 10.
Hebrews 10
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
a. Do Christians "usually" stop attending church, stop reading the Bible, stop renewing their minds, stop praying, etc....I don't know that that is correct.
b. It is possible for a Christian to backslide and then return. It is tragic, but true.
c. Many who professed to be Christians were never really regenerated. But that is not for us to judge whether they were or not on individual cases. But we do examine OURSELVES.
The purpose of my question was neither to promote or attack OSAS, but to ask a clarifying question of those who believe in OSAS.
Just to repeat something I said earlier...
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Those who have truly received GRACE have
a. Been taught to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.
b. Been taught to live soberly, righteousnly in this present world. (or age)
c. Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our Great God and Saviour.
d. Have been redeemed from all iniquity.
e. Have been redeemed by Christ, with the intent to be a purified, peculiar people, zealous of good works.
f. And we are to teach these thing with all authority, and not allow ourselves to be despised.
Excellent!!
yes, very excellent. A Christian will seek to purify themselves (1 John 3:3), not sin all they want. 1 John 3:3 is a descriptive statement.
Yes, That's exactly how I see it. Thanks for posting.
No doubt, says John, that they would have continued with us if they were of us.
( I hold this to be a DESCRIPTIVE statement describing those who are truly Christ's house)
No, those who believe in eternal security and the true gospel are born again and dont "want" to sin.
It is shameful and painful, the things we onced took joy from now cause us to suffer and God will chasten us when we need correction... not throw His own children into hell like some falsely believe...
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That is the straw man created by those who believe they can lose their eternal salvation by ceasing to believe on Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That is a description of a Christian who abides in the vine.
John 15
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.