Mystery Babylon

[eternally-gratefull]

So do you believe that Jesus died in Sodom and Egypt?

The bible doesn't declare too many cities great. It could be Ninevah, I suppose, if you believe Jesus was crucified there.

Drunk with the blood of the saints, just as Israel was. What doesn't fit about the harlot?

I never said that city was not jerusalem, I agree, THAT city is Jerusalem

We are discussing the city of REV 17. Not that city’

Since jerusalem does not fit the characterisitics of rev 17, It can not be the same city. Just because it is called a great city does not prove anything, ALL the characteristics have to fit. Not just 1!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Riddle me this, What is so great about jerusalem that makes it be such a worldwide influencer that the worldwide leader will have to destroy it because it is a worldwide threat to him and his army?

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

I never said that city was not jerusalem, I agree, THAT city is Jerusalem

We are discussing the city of REV 17. Not that city’

Since jerusalem does not fit the characterisitics of rev 17, It can not be the same city. Just because it is called a great city does not prove anything, ALL the characteristics have to fit. Not just 1!

Aha. I thought you were arguing against *that* city. Thanks for clarifying.

The city in Revelation 17 has seven hills, like Jerusalem. Also drunk with the blood of God's people, like Jerusalem. Also a great city, like Jerusalem. Mother of prostitutes - I would have to say that is Jerusalem, rather than Rome, as Jerusalem came first. Will be hated by the beast - both Roman Catholics and New Israel seem to draw a special hatred from the world, so hard to differentiate on that count. Why do you think it's not referring to Jerusalem?

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Riddle me this, What is so great about jerusalem that makes it be such a worldwide influencer that the worldwide leader will have to destroy it because it is a worldwide threat to him and his army?

It's not really about being a worldwide threat. It might just be the punishment that is awaiting those who won't repent the crucifixion of Christ, and instead, try to follow in the footsteps of those who murdered him - "I am not a widow, I sit as Queen".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not really about being a worldwide threat. It might just be the punishment that is awaiting those who won't repent the crucifixion of Christ, and instead, try to follow in the footsteps of those who murdered him - "I am not a widow, I sit as Queen".

So its all about punishing jews? Have they not been punished enough?

And by the way, We all crucified Christ. Even jesus said father forgive them, they know not what they do.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

So its all about punishing jews? Have they not been punished enough?

Have they repented? I don't determine who is to be punished or who is to be forgiven. If the Jews turned to Christ, they would be forgiven. Remember it was they who said "Let His blood be on us and on our children."

And by the way, We all crucified Christ. Even jesus said father forgive them, they know not what they do.

I agree that Christ died for all of we sinners. But the sinners who repent are forgiven, the sinners who continue in unrepentence are damned. And Jesus asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers, I don't believe He was speaking of the Jews (or the Jewish leaders, at least), who knew full well what they did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Aha. I thought you were arguing against *that* city. Thanks for clarifying.

The city in Revelation 17 has seven hills, like Jerusalem. Also drunk with the blood of God's people, like Jerusalem. Also a great city, like Jerusalem. Mother of prostitutes - I would have to say that is Jerusalem, rather than Rome, as Jerusalem came first. Will be hated by the beast - both Roman Catholics and New Israel seem to draw a special hatred from the world, so hard to differentiate on that count. Why do you think it's not referring to Jerusalem?

Just so you know.

Rome has seven hills

She killed christians for well over a thousand years (much more than isreal did)

Is also a great city, known worldwide

Was the mother of prostitutes in christs day, could still be called that today. (Jerusalem has never been the mother of harlots. She was NEVER the center of the false church).

So you think the beast sits on jerusalem? That sis what rev 17 says, Why would the beast sit on a city he hates? (Just asking)

Roman catholics are beloved by the world. In fact. Most free nations are catholic nations. Even the US has more catholics than any other denomination.

Also

Jersualem does not have any influence in the worlds affairs. Where as the harlot has great influence

Jerusalem is not wealthy (from the worlds standard) the harlot of very wealthy

Jerusalem does not make the people rich, by buying there goods. Were the harlot does

Jersualem is hated by the word. The harlot is beloved.

Jerusalem is not a leader in ecclesiastical affairs, where the harlot is.

They just do not fit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have they repented? I don't determine who is to be punished or who is to be forgiven. If the Jews turned to Christ, they would be forgiven. Remember it was they who said "Let His blood be on us and on our children."

According to prophesies and paul himself. They will not repent until the time of the gentile is complete. In fact, the time of Jacobs troube, or great tribulation as jesus called it, is paused to bring Israel to repentance.

That is why the lev 26 punishments continue even today. So why does she have to be punished more, it makes no sense.

I agree that Christ died for all of we sinners. But the sinners who repent are forgiven, the sinners who continue in unrepentence are damned. And Jesus asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers, I don't believe He was speaking of the Jews (or the Jewish leaders, at least), who knew full well what they did.

You forget that the church of jerusalem was huge, so it is appearant god forgave them also.
Jerusalem was destroyed because of lev 26 punishment, It will be restored accord to the same covenant, once israel repents.

No one alive today had Christ killed. Jew or gentile

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Just so you know.

Rome has seven hills

She killed christians for well over a thousand years (much more than isreal did)

Is also a great city, known worldwide

Was the mother of prostitutes in christs day, could still be called that today. (Jerusalem has never been the mother of harlots. She was NEVER the center of the false church).

So you think the beast sits on jerusalem? That sis what rev 17 says, Why would the beast sit on a city he hates? (Just asking)

Roman catholics are beloved by the world. In fact. Most free nations are catholic nations. Even the US has more catholics than any other denomination.

Also

Jersualem does not have any influence in the worlds affairs. Where as the harlot has great influence

Jerusalem is not wealthy (from the worlds standard) the harlot of very wealthy

Jerusalem does not make the people rich, by buying there goods. Were the harlot does

Jersualem is hated by the word. The harlot is beloved.

Jerusalem is not a leader in ecclesiastical affairs, where the harlot is.

They just do not fit.

I think you summarised the description in this post well. However, where you believe Rome is a better fit, I believe Jerusalem (or at least, those calling themselves Jews). For example, you say Rome was the mother of prostitutes. But Rome was never married to God. Israel was married God, and (I argue) became the mother of prostitutes/unfaithfulness with her adulteries. So although Rome may have had many false gods, she never had the covenant with God that Israel did. You say that Rome killed Christians for a 1000 years. (False) Jews killed God's people even before Christ ("Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those God sends to you").

You say Jerusalem has no influence in the world's affairs, but those calling themselves Jews practically control the US. You say Jerusalem is hated by the world. I say moreso the Christians - even Catholics. Such were butchered in the Communist countries, and are still killed and tortured today. No such persecution of Jews.

Anyway, although we disagree on which people/group best fits the description, I think it's a good description.

 

[UnderGrace]

Jerusalem has never been the center of any false religious system.

This is pretty funny EG!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you summarised the description in this post well. However, where you believe Rome is a better fit, I believe Jerusalem (or at least, those calling themselves Jews). For example, you say Rome was the mother of prostitutes. But Rome was never married to God. Israel was married God, and (I argue) became the mother of prostitutes/unfaithfulness with her adulteries.

Here is the just of the problem my friend

A prostitute is not married. She is the person the married person goes to to cheat.

Your right, Jerusalem is married, SHe PLAYED the harlot, or slept with the prostitute, which in the OT started with the worship of egyptian Gods, then her worship of the Canaanite Gods (IE Baal worship) which got so bad, God had Assyria destroy the northern kingdom. And eventually led to the souths destruction from babylon.

Then the harlot got its strength in Greece and eventually rome. Who was the mother of harlots in Christ day.

The harlot was the foreign Gods, not Israel.

So although Rome may have had many false gods, she never had the covenant with God that Israel did. You say that Rome killed Christians for a 1000 years. (False) Jews killed God's people even before Christ ("Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those God sends to you").

False? The roman church killed anyone who did not believe or follow her ways, She used the sword of rome to enforce everyone would believer he way or else. It was not until the break up of rome when she lost her power. Yet even then, the great wars of protestant vs catholic is well documented

How many christians have the jews killed the last 2000 years?

You say Jerusalem has no influence in the world's affairs, but those calling themselves Jews practically control the US.

What?? Lol.. No they do not. This is funny though.

And the us is one nation, John said she has influence worldwide, that would be in all nations.

You say Jerusalem is hated by the world. I say moreso the Christians - even Catholics. Such were butchered in the Communist countries, and are still killed and tortured today. No such persecution of Jews.

Did you forget ww2? How about the wars in the middle east? People who claim to be christians themselves have killed many jews in the name of God. Have you read Luther’s book on what he thinks of the jews? Many believe Hitler got his antisemetic hatred from that book, and followed most of his ideas.

Isreal has been the most hated and persecuted nation or group of people since she was formed.

Anyway, although we disagree on which people/group best fits the description, I think it's a good description.

Once again,

Daniel called Jerusalem the city of God. God did not tell him he was wrong, or correct him, In fact, it is called the city of God in most places. It is desolate because of lev 26. It WILL be restored, when Christ stands on mount of olives and the mountain splits in 2. Until then, there will be no peace. It will be left desolate. Remember, Even if they rebuild a temple. They still do not really own the whole land,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is pretty funny EG!!

It is? What worldwide religion has been centered there?

The church has rome

Islam has mecca
It is not even the center of islam today. Yet one of Islams greatest monuments is there.

I would not classify judaism as a world wide religion. And it has never been centered in Jerusalem until maybe the last century,

 

[Hevosmies358]

Mystery Babylon is Rome. City on 7hills is KNOWN as Rome commonly, NOT Jerusalem.

Jerusalem never had the merchants of the world in their pockets. ROME on the other hand...... pay attention when a country chooses a president, they ALWAYS go and meet and greet the Pope.

Some suggest judaism is the religion of Jerusalem and thats true, you can say that. But lets just be for real, judaism has always been a small player in the world, nobody cares about judaism. Its smaller than mormonism, literally. Utah is a bigger player in the religion field.

Also, judaism is a difficult religion to convert to, and they havent been doing much persecuting of anyone since the 1st century christians were persecuted, after that, its been pretty much a one-sided beating they've beeen taking consistently from all parties involved.

(And that wont change until Jesus returns, btw)

Feel free to PM me or start a thread if anyone wants to talk church history, and how ALL protestants identified the CATHOLIC CHURCH as the #1 villain.

Lets recap why Rome is the city, and not Jerusalem:

Rome is known as the city on 7hills.
Rome has persecuted the church, jerusalem only did that for a small time, soon the empire converted to christianity
Rome has significant influence and economy power unlike Jerusalem
Rome is the center of the false Christianity (Roman catholicism) and matches the babylonian mystery religion, unlike Jerusalem
Rome MATCHES the colors of purple and scarlet mentioned in the book of Revelation, check out the color of clothing of their clergy.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I have been following a chat initiated by "Stillness" titled: "Whatever people say the mark of the beast is: its a lie."

In it "Stillness" (if I'm reading him right) starts the conversation with a fundamental proposition that all inferences as to what the mark of the Beast is are lies because it has to have something what the adversary/the spirit behind the Beast System/Mystery Babylon as cited for example in;

Ezekiel 28:16 KJV By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Perhaps the link is clarified with the following verse:

Revelation 2:13 KJV I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.


Here, Satan's seat is in Pergamos.

Pergamos is Present day Venice.

Venice was the first world Central Bank (Think Ez 28:16 above where the word merchandise is often translated "trades")

Venice Satan's seat moved to London in I think the 1600's

London established branch in the US in the early 1900's (Federal Reserve)

Once the Federal Reserve was Established Mystery Babylon seized control of the US and has controlled the world militarily ever since.

MYSTERY BABYLON is in all caps because it is a Corporation. All corporations are all caps. Note the United States of America went to THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA after MYSTERY BABYLON seized control. Central controlling cities are London (Mother Babylon), Brussels, New York and Washington DC (Daughter of Babylon) among others. MYSTERY BABYLON is a parasitic organization controlling its hosts through "Covet means" as Kennedy said in the speech that got him killed. Note the admonition from God to the US under occupation of the MYSTERY BABYLON/The Daughter of Babylon branch;

Zechariah 2:7 KJV Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

Read more in Isaiah 47


Much more but have to cut this short for now. Planting in Garden!

 

[Lanolin]

The only caveat I have about it being rome is that christians dont really recognise rome or the pope -only catholics do. World leaders meet each other out of courtesy its not like the queen of england actually makes a pilgrimage to rome. Just cos theres a photo of them shaking hands, doesnt mean shes in league with the pope because the queen actually meets all the world leaders even those she doesnt necessarily agree with.

I thought it would have more to do with trade and love of money being the root of all evil than any religion as such. Because of the descriptions about all the merchandise. Worship of the beast...is worship of mammon? Remember how revelation says people couldnt buy or sell if they didnt have the mark of the beast.
Am also thinking how it has something to do with Jezebel or Athaliah who was one of the wicked queens of Judah. The woman riding the beast has 17 kings fornicating with her. Which 17 kings would do this?

That great city...is rome a great city? Why does verse 23 say the voice of the bride and bridegroom shall be heard no more in thee?

How can ONE city be responsible for all those slain upon the earth. Who killed the apostles of Jesus?
Wasnt John the Baptist killed in Jerusalem, and he was the last of the prophets?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I was totally unaware of some of the statements of vatican II.

Here is an extract of its pronoucements

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

It is so ecumenical and open in a way that is surprisingly non-biblical.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The only caveat I have about it being rome is that christians dont really recognise rome or the pope -only catholics do. World leaders meet each other out of courtesy its not like the queen of england actually makes a pilgrimage to rome. Just cos theres a photo of them shaking hands, doesnt mean shes in league with the pope because the queen actually meets all the world leaders even those she doesnt necessarily agree with.

I thought it would have more to do with trade and love of money being the root of all evil than any religion as such. Because of the descriptions about all the merchandise. Worship of the beast...is worship of mammon? Remember how revelation says people couldnt buy or sell if they didnt have the mark of the beast.
Am also thinking how it has something to do with Jezebel or Athaliah who was one of the wicked queens of Judah. The woman riding the beast has 17 kings fornicating with her. Which 17 kings would do this?

That great city...is rome a great city? Why does verse 23 say the voice of the bride and bridegroom shall be heard no more in thee?

How can ONE city be responsible for all those slain upon the earth. Who killed the apostles of Jesus?
Wasnt John the Baptist killed in Jerusalem, and he was the last of the prophets?

This is the greatest argument

The false church with pagan roots. Fits babylon well.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Mystery Babylon is the roman catholic church.

Rev 17:6 - Rome persecuted the martyrs before

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Rev 17:9 - Rome is known as the city of seven hills

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The Antichrist is the pope.

Dan 11:37 - He is a jew and either a homosexual or someone who practices celibacy.


37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan 11:15 - He is a syrian jew. Syria is the king of the north and egypt is the king of the south.

15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.

Rev 13:2 - the leopard - note the skin color/yellow, black and white

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Jer 13:23 - He is african, asian, caucasian/the three major race-shem/ham/japheth

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Greetings Tinkerbell725,

In 1 John 2:21-23 John describes the antichrist:


21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.


John coined the word antichrist, so it seems right to look to his definition of it as well.

From His description it seems that he had the Jews in mind,
Those Jews who had denied that Jesus is the Christ.
They claimed to know the Father, but unless they confessed the Son, they did not have the Father either!

“This is the antichrist,” John says. All other definitions would seem to have to align with his.


Note also in verse 21 above that John links this to the knowledge of the truth about Jesus Christ. Perhaps this is also a reference to the pattern in Dan. 8:12, where the inferior horn flung truth to the ground. Antiochus turned the temple into a place where a false god was worshiped. The Jews did the same by rejecting the Messiah, who was rightfully both King and High Priest. In both cases, the temple was usurped.

Bless YHWH!

 

[Lanolin]

When people say Rome, dont they actually mean the Vatican.
As far as I know, Vatican city is actually a city state. Its within Rome, but its actually independent.

Other than that I dont know much about its history not ever studied it or been there or personally know anyone who lives there. At the time John was writing while he was exiled in the isle of Patmos, would he have known about Vatican city, when was it founded. i would think revelation would have been about a great city known to him at the time, and not a future one. Many cities have sprung up in recent years. I would think what John refered to was an existing one, that had the blood of all the prophets (all the old testament prophets) and the apostles (the 12 disciples of Jesus) . On of the first martyrs was Stephen and he was stoned in Jerusalem. I dont know where the rest were killed/slain.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Here is the just of the problem my friend

A prostitute is not married. She is the person the married person goes to to cheat.

Your right, Jerusalem is married, SHe PLAYED the harlot, or slept with the prostitute, which in the OT started with the worship of egyptian Gods, then her worship of the Canaanite Gods (IE Baal worship) which got so bad, God had Assyria destroy the northern kingdom. And eventually led to the souths destruction from babylon.

Then the harlot got its strength in Greece and eventually rome. Who was the mother of harlots in Christ day.

The harlot was the foreign Gods, not Israel.

Ezekiel 16 gives us biblical proof that Jerusalem was a harlot - if not the mother of all harlots. God even said Jerusalem was worse than a harlot, as a harlot at least gets paid for her work, but Jerusalem paid her lovers.

Ezekiel 16: 2, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 30, 33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.
30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

False? The roman church killed anyone who did not believe or follow her ways, She used the sword of rome to enforce everyone would believer he way or else. It was not until the break up of rome when she lost her power. Yet even then, the great wars of protestant vs catholic is well documented

How many christians have the jews killed the last 2000 years?

10s of millions (if not 100s of millions) of Christians were killed last century alone by Communists, which was founded and propagated by those calling themselves Jews.

What?? Lol.. No they do not. This is funny though.

Here is a picture of Trump, the US president, in a Jewish hat worshipping a Jewish wall. The Catholics might appear to be the next most powerful nation to the Jews, but do you have any photographs of Trump worshipping the Pope? I think that as Trump worships the Jewish wall and not the Pope, this proves Jerusalem controls Trump, and not Rome.

And the us is one nation, John said she has influence worldwide, that would be in all nations.

The US controls the world. Surely you can see this? It overthrows nations via the CIA. The US dollar is the reserve currency of the world. It would seem a little naive to doubt the immense world-wide power the US wields.

Did you forget ww2?

Nope. I believe far more Christians died in World War II than Jews.

How about the wars in the middle east?

Usually Muslims are victims of wars in the Middle East, right?

People who claim to be christians themselves have killed many jews in the name of God. Have you read Luther’s book on what he thinks of the jews?

Many more Christians have died at the hands of Jews than Jews at the hands of Christians. I don't think Luther was a great fan of most Jews, but then I don't think most Jews are great fans of Luther. Live and let live, though, right?

Daniel called Jerusalem the city of God. God did not tell him he was wrong, or correct him, In fact, it is called the city of God in most places.

I don't doubt that Jerusalem was the city of God.

It is desolate because of lev 26. It WILL be restored, when Christ stands on mount of olives and the mountain splits in 2. Until then, there will be no peace. It will be left desolate. Remember, Even if they rebuild a temple. They still do not really own the whole land,

Is it desolate now? I thought Trump declared it New Israel's capital?