Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[DinoDillinger]

Not totally convinced of one position over the over but I will point out that the pharisees were expecting the Messiah to show up and begin a literal reign over the earth and they were wrong. Jesus told them that His kingdom is not of this earth. A spiritual kingdom reign is not outside the realm of a faithful biblical reading of the text.

 

[crossnote]

Well, according to Hebrews 11, if Rahab had faith in God only, but did not hide the spies, do you think she would still have been saved?

I believe her faith in God would have moved her to obedience. Even in the story we see that faith came before good works. It was her faith in the true God that moved her to hide the spies.

 

[crossnote]

Not totally convinced of one position over the over but I will point out that the pharisees were expecting the Messiah to show up and begin a literal reign over the earth and they were wrong. Jesus told them that His kingdom is not of this earth. A spiritual kingdom reign is not outside the realm of a faithful biblical reading of the text.

The disciples still had a literal expectancy of His reign after spending three years under His teaching before the resurrection and 40 days after. The Pharisees problem was not a literal interpretation of His reigning as King, but they missed the literal Scriptures which foretold His first coming as a suffering servant. e.g. Isa 53.

Here are the disciples after the resurrection still expecting a literal future reign...

Acts 1:6-8 NKJV
[6] Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" [7] And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. [8] But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

 

[Guojing]

I believe her faith in God would have moved her to obedience. Even in the story we see that faith came before good works. It was her faith in the true God that moved her to hide the spies.

So you don't think that, under our current grace dispensation, we Gentile Christians have it much easier than Rahab, since Jesus Christ has finished all the work necessary on our behalf?

What do you think we have to do after we believe in Jesus's finished work?

 

[TMS]

First thing you need to do is work out if the 1000 years has started yet or is it future?
The bible makes it clear that it startes after the first resurrection which happen when Jesus comes.
Rev 20.1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

1 Thes 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Read in context and remember that Revelation isn't perfectly in order, it repeats itself and has some Chiastic structure.
The 1000 years is clearly after the second coming and the first resurrection. (Which is another subject).

 

[garee]

First thing you need to do is work out if the 1000 years has started yet or is it future?
The bible makes it clear that it startes after the first resurrection which happen when Jesus comes.
Rev 20.1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

1 Thes 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Read in context and remember that Revelation isn't perfectly in order, it repeats itself and has some Chiastic structure.
The 1000 years is clearly after the second coming and the first resurrection. (Which is another subject).

The first thing to do world be to recognize the language in Revelation is identified as "signified". Once you find the "signified meaning" of the word in that parable found in revelation 20 using the 2 Coriorinthians 4:18 reference to rightly divide. Then we can find the spiritual understanding. A understanding required again using the things seen the temporal to give us the spirit understanding not seen (the faith principle). Many simply literalize the book of Revelation as in if the first sense make sense walk by sight. It is not a prescription found in the Bible for rightly diving the word of God. .

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

The signified formula for finding the spiritual understanding below .Keep in mind without parable Christ spoke not hiding the understanding .Giving the believer the tools to search it out.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[garee]

So you don't think that, under our current grace dispensation, we Gentile Christians have it much easier than Rahab, since Jesus Christ has finished all the work necessary on our behalf?

What do you think we have to do after we believe in Jesus's finished work?

Current grace dispensation? Which dispensation did not offer grace when God worked in a believer to both will and do His good pleasure . He had grace on Able but not Cain. That would seem like a start?

Where did the idea of dispensations, God working differently in the hearts of men in different time periods get its foundation from ?

I would think that after we believe in Jesus's finished work we keep on believing...If he begun the good work of the hearing of faith working in us yoked with Him he will finish it to the end.(Philippians 1:6) Its the dispensation of believing as he gives us His faith to make it possible.

 

[garee]

The disciples still had a literal expectancy of His reign after spending three years under His teaching before the resurrection and 40 days after. The Pharisees problem was not a literal interpretation of His reigning as King, but they missed the literal Scriptures which foretold His first coming as a suffering servant. e.g. Isa 53.

Here are the disciples after the resurrection still expecting a literal future reign...

Acts 1:6-8 NKJV
[6] Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" [7] And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. [8] But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

I think all scriptures are literal, as in literature . The letter of the scriptures kills showing us we are born without hope without faith. .

The Spirit of faith not seen heals and creates a new.

It would seem to be the believers are continuing to reign .The great commission. Go out unto the whole world with the gospel our new tongue .

The Kingdom was restored when the reformation came.

The Jew lost their temporal use according to their corrupted flesh that some used in a hope that Jewish flesh could profit for something. Like a get out of hell free pass. Even the Son of man Jesus said his flesh profits for zero, as the temporal

The kingdom was restored to the previous time of Judges. Men and woman alike. Not the outward representation by the flesh of flesh a pagan design in regard to all the kingdom of this world. As new creatures we are not considered Jew nor gentile, male or female. We are not what we will be when we do receive of new incorruptible bodies.

We are lovingly commanded to know no man or woman after what the eyes see. Rather we walk by the unseen eternal. And not after what the eyes see the temporal.

 

[crossnote]

So you don't think that, under our current grace dispensation, we Gentile Christians have it much easier than Rahab, since Jesus Christ has finished all the work necessary on our behalf?

It's the same, faith is what was always required. Read Heb 11. The benefits of Jesus' sacrifice reach back to the Fall, otherwise no one before Calvary would be saved.

What do you think we have to do after we believe in Jesus's finished work?

Have to do? For what? All that we do, w do out of a heart of thanksgiving for what Jesus has already done.

 

[crossnote]

I think all scriptures are literal, as in literature . The letter of the scriptures kills showing us we are born without hope without faith. .

The Spirit of faith not seen heals and creates a new.

It would seem to be the believers are continuing to reign .The great commission. Go out unto the whole world with the gospel our new tongue .

The Kingdom was restored when the reformation came.

The Jew lost their temporal use according to their corrupted flesh that some used in a hope that Jewish flesh could profit for something. Like a get out of hell free pass. Even the Son of man Jesus said his flesh profits for zero, as the temporal

The kingdom was restored to the previous time of Judges. Men and woman alike. Not the outward representation by the flesh of flesh a pagan design in regard to all the kingdom of this world. As new creatures we are not considered Jew nor gentile, male or female. We are not what we will be when we do receive of new incorruptible bodies.

We are lovingly commanded to know no man or woman after what the eyes see. Rather we walk by the unseen eternal. And not after what the eyes see the temporal.

If you backed up your statements with Scripture, we can have a more meaningful discussion. Oh wait, you said, "The letter of the scriptures kills showing us we are born without hope without faith", so I guess we can't use Scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

You are definitely someone who finds it very difficult to agree to disagree, and to understand the other person's point of view.

Do you recall Obi wan's advice to Luke that many of the truths we hold are only true from a "certain point of view"?

There is no different point of view....there is truth -->James does not disagree with Paul and their is error--->that which you are peddling......

 

[UnderGrace]

Try to read Galatians 2 and Acts 21 properly, before you conclude that Paul and James are in "perfect agreement".

I felt it was most interesting that, when Paul was under so much trouble from the zealous Jews in Acts 22 onward, none of the elders and James ever came and spoke up for him.

Paul and James are in perfect agreement, absolutely ...truth is not divided

 

[crossnote]

There is no different point of view....there is truth -->James does not disagree with Paul and their is error--->that which you are peddling......

No Postmodern swill here. lol

 

[cv5]

You are definitely someone who finds it very difficult to agree to disagree, and to understand the other person's point of view.

Do you recall Obi wan's advice to Luke that many of the truths we hold are only true from a "certain point of view"?

Quoting Obie wan is your first mistake. And its dowhill from there....

 

[cv5]

Yes, my view is that James the Brother of Jesus, did not agree with Paul about the gospel of grace. He believes that the Jews should continue under the gospel of the kingdom, which requires faith and works.

However he did agree that gentiles are fully under the gospel of grace as acts 21 indicated. That is the context of Galatians 2

He agreed. In fact he amplified it.

 

[dcontroversal]

No Postmodern swill here. lol

I cannot believe any true believer would peddle that crap --->JAMES disagrees with PAUL<----that is idiotic..........and God would not lead a child of his to come to such a conclusion.........

 

[crossnote]

just a test, neat this works on an ipad. ?<<<<nnnnN?{

I cannot believe any true believer would peddle that crap --->JAMES disagrees with PAUL<----that is idiotic..........and God would not lead a child of his to come to such a conclusion.........

As if God is a schizoid, always contradicting Himself. lol

 

[Guojing]

It's the same, faith is what was always required. Read Heb 11. The benefits of Jesus' sacrifice reach back to the Fall, otherwise no one before Calvary would be saved.

Have to do? For what? All that we do, w do out of a heart of thanksgiving for what Jesus has already done.

So you do agree that Rahab and Noah had it more difficult than us. Not only they needed to believe in God, they also need to show their faith thru a specific work, to be considered justified

For us, as Paul stated repeatedly,

BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Rahab and Noah would envy you, that was the point I was trying to establish. Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)

Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)

Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking.

This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

 

[garee]

If you backed up your statements with Scripture, we can have a more meaningful discussion. Oh wait, you said, "The letter of the scriptures kills showing us we are born without hope without faith", so I guess we can't use Scripture.

Thanks I can try.

The Spirit of the word as the "law of faith" it heals giving us a living His faith that works in us so that we can beleive Him. Previously not having ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches us.. Something he calls no faith.

We compare the spiritual understanding to the same unseen spiritual understanding. Also called faith to faith .

We do not compare the letter that kills, to the letter that kills. The literal temporal seen to the same all die not receiving the promise a new incorruptible body.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Roman1:16-17

Both are under as it is written with the word it representing the source of faith. The written can produce as a source of faith just as it kills as a source of a law.

different kind of laws that together make one spoken of in Psalms the two becoming the perfect. When mixed the mystery of faith .Which will remain a mystery that cannot be added to. .

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Mixing faith a concept as a mystery . Mixing faith, a phrase found in Hebrew 4 .

I would think mixing it according to the prescription (2 Corinthiains4:18) works in what one hears or see. It is where the healing or converting comes in when God's Spirit does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We therefore can walk by that faith as two walking together .

I think it is called call the mystery of faith possibly giving meaning to the hidden manna spoken of in Revelation 2.

No claim it fame it new age dug up from the old. .Manna giving us the idea. What is it? Which defines the word as foreign to natural taste, the food the disciples at first knew not of. It is to sustain the believer in the wilderness .

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:15

Mixing faith, believing both making one perfect . The doubled edged sword.

Or that is how I view it today.

Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

 

[dcontroversal]

So you do agree that Rahab and Noah had it more difficult than us. Not only they needed to believe in God, they also need to show their faith thru a specific work, to be considered justified

For us, as Paul stated repeatedly,

BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Rahab and Noah would envy you, that was the point I was trying to establish. Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)

Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)

Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking.

This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

No we do not agree with your perverted view......

Therefore we conclude that Abraham was justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

BEFORE GOD a man is fully justified BY FAITH and FAITH alone......

And ABRAHAM was JUSTIFIED before GOD long before your cited example......man.....you really need to start looking through the lens of faith instead of conflating numerous views into ONE false quagmire.....