Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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Skyline

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What does everyone think of this article?
Biblical and Supporting articles for Annihilation

Again, I’m undecided but am leaning.

Plus I can see the argument that only God is immortal and he bestows this on those saved. How could those in hell be eternally alive then?

“which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

Nehemiah6

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Are we able to link to articles? I read a very well argued in favor of annihilation.
An article on Soul Sleep was already quoted and refuted. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism go hand in hand and a distinctive of the cults.

Why don't you take all the Scriptures pertaining to Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire), post them, and then demonstrate from those Scriptures that they don't mean what they say? That would help you to make up your mind. You could start with Mark 9:42-48, since those are the words of Christ Himself and cannot be refuted.
 

Nehemiah6

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There would be no point for any Christian to WASTE THEIR TIME on this article.

The article starts off with false doctrine: "Scripture sees immortality as something that belongs to God alone" (1 Tim 6:16). Well that is refuted in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, which pertains to the resurrected, transformed, and glorified bodies of the saints, which become IMMORTAL.

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [DIE], but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Mortality and corruption pertain to the human body. God says that at the Resurrection/Rapture that will be changed to incorruption and immortality. So the writer of this article was dishonest by claiming that immortality belongs to God alone. That is true for now, but will change at the Resurrection/Rapture.
 

Skyline

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An article on Soul Sleep was already quoted and refuted. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism go hand in hand and a distinctive of the cults.

Why don't you take all the Scriptures pertaining to Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire), post them, and then demonstrate from those Scriptures that they don't mean what they say? That would help you to make up your mind. You could start with Mark 9:42-48, since those are the words of Christ Himself and cannot be refuted.
I read Mark 9:42-48 and see a) the fire never goes out however this does not say anything about people being in it forever, b) fire burns things up into ash, c) worms eat corpses not those living
Scripture elsewhere could support annihilation, all words in the bible are of God.
Again, I’m not certain on one or another. :)
 
K

Karraster

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Well, according to Nehemiah6 I belong to a cult. I wasn't raised Catholic, never have I believed that Almighty intends to torture forever those who deny Him. They will simply be destroyed and like they had never been. What kind of justice would that be? A never ending suffering to a soul who had done wrong for only years or decades?

Now men may wish that on their enemies, to that I say thank God He is God and not them!
 

Magenta

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An article on Soul Sleep was already quoted and refuted. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism go hand in hand and a distinctive of the cults.
Jesus spoke of death as sleep, and soul sleep is in both Old and New Testaments. According to you, Jesus was/is a cultist o_O
 

Skyline

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There would be no point for any Christian to WASTE THEIR TIME on this article.

The article starts off with false doctrine: "Scripture sees immortality as something that belongs to God alone" (1 Tim 6:16). Well that is refuted in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, which pertains to the resurrected, transformed, and glorified bodies of the saints, which become IMMORTAL.
Did you not read the next sentence on that page?... did you read the first sentence and stop?

“While Hellenistic philosophical tradition generally viewed the human soul as inherently immortal, Scripture sees immortality as something that belongs to God alone (1 Tim 6:16). God graciously offers immortality as a gift to people who align themselves with His will (John 3:15-16; 10:28; 17:2; Rom 2:7;6:23; 1 Cor 15:53-54; Gal 6:8; 1 John5:11). However, like Adam and Eve (Gen 3:22-23), those who choose to reject God’s will are denied this gift. Unfortunately, some early church fathers (esp. Augustine) accepted the Hellenistic view and read into Scripture the idea that the wicked suffer unending torment.”​
 

Magenta

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Did you not read the next sentence on that page?... did you read the first sentence and stop?

“While Hellenistic philosophical tradition generally viewed the human soul as inherently immortal, Scripture sees immortality as something that belongs to God alone (1 Tim 6:16). God graciously offers immortality as a gift to people who align themselves with His will (John 3:15-16; 10:28; 17:2; Rom 2:7;6:23; 1 Cor 15:53-54; Gal 6:8; 1 John5:11). However, like Adam and Eve (Gen 3:22-23), those who choose to reject God’s will are denied this gift. Unfortunately, some early church fathers (esp. Augustine) accepted the Hellenistic view and read into Scripture the idea that the wicked suffer unending torment.”​
Some will say that anything God creates lasts forever, but I do not see that anywhere in Scripture. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Some also insist that the soul of man is immortal, but that directly contradicts Scripture also.
 

Nehemiah6

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Some also insist that the soul of man is immortal, but that directly contradicts Scripture also.
Mortality applies only to human bodies (see 1 Cor 15). Souls and spirits are IMMATERiAL AND IMPERISHABLE and continue for eternity. Either with God and Christ, or eternally separated from God and Christ in the Lake of Fire. And that is what Scripture teaches.
 

Magenta

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Mortality applies only to human bodies (see 1 Cor 15). Souls and spirits are IMMATERiAL AND IMPERISHABLE and continue for eternity. Either with God and Christ, or eternally separated from God and Christ in the Lake of Fire. And that is what Scripture teaches.
Scripture teaches that the unbeliever, those who reject God/Jesus Christ, perish.
They will be utterly destroyed. Remember John 3:16? I guess not. Here is a reminder:


 

ToastAndTea

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Scripture teaches that the unbeliever, those who reject God/Jesus Christ, perish.
They will be utterly destroyed. Remember John 3:16? I guess not. Here is a reminder:


The death referred to is the death of the spirit. Eternal seperation from God. Forever and ever. We don't understand spiritual death because liken it to the death of the body, which is perishable. But here's a thought, if the punishment were to be not eternal, might that also apply to the concept of eternal life? Eternal is eternal be it spiritual wickedness or spiritual purity.

Isaiah 66:22-24

For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Daniel 12:1-2

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 18:6-9

Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

2 Thess 1:5-10

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Doesn't sound like he was burning up to me. He was very much alive and conscious, and in torment.
 

Magenta

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The original Greek word erroneously translated in the KJV to mean forever or everlasting actually often pertains to a specific period of time, with both a beginning and an end.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age

Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted
with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.


The word "everlasting" is applied to things in some Bible passages
that the Bible states, in other passages, is clearly NOT "everlasting."


Here is an example of Biblical contradictions produced by the mistranslation of the word "eon."

"the everlasting hills" Gen 49:26 and Deut 33:15 (R.V.)

Yet the Bible states that the hills are NOT "everlasting."

Isa 54:10 "For the mountains shall depart and the hills be removed"

Amos 9:13 "and all the hills shall melt"

2 Peter 3:10 "and the earth shall be burned up"


The mistranslation of the word "eon" as everlasting, eternal, forever, and even "world", in the King James Version, and almost all translations of the Bible, leads to confusion and even sometimes to false doctrine. Certain Bible translations have corrected some of the mistakes by translating the word "eon" as "age" which is much more accurate. But they don't do it in every instance.

The Concordant Version is a literal, direct, word-for-word translation from the Greek to English.

Concordant (in blue) King James Version (In red)

Matthew 18: 8 eonion fire everlasting fire
Matthew 19:16 eonion fire eternal life
Matthew 19:29
eonian life everlasting life
Matthew 25:46
eonian chastening everlasting punishment
Matthew 25:46
eonion life life eternal
Mark 3:29
eonian sin eternal damnation
Luke18:18
eonian life eternal life
Luke 18 :30
eonian life life everlasting
John 4:36
eonion life life eternal
John 5:24
eonion life everlasting life
John 5:39
eonion life eternal life
John 6:27
eonion life everlasting life
Romans 16:25
in times eonian since the world began
Romans 16:26
eonian God everlasting God
2Thesalonians 1: 9
eonian extermination everlasting destruction
2Timothy 1: 9
before eonian times before the world began
Hebrews 5: 9
eonian salvation eternal salvation
Hebrews 6: 2
eonian judgment eternal judgment
Hebrews 9:12
eonian redemption eternal redemption
Rv. 14: 6
eonian evangel everlasting gospel
 

Magenta

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Jesus said (in Matthew 25:46) of sinners at the time of judgment, that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment." Some have interpreted this to mean eternal torment, though this passage speaks of everlasting punishment, not of "everlasting punishing."

"The wages of sin is death," says Paul in Romans 6:23. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," says Ezekiel 18:4. That means that the sinner will suffer everlasting death, from which there will be no recovery. There is no resurrection from the second death promised to anyone.

Paul makes clear (in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) what is meant by everlasting punishment when he says that "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord." The everlasting punishment to be meted out to the ungodly will be eternal destruction.

What about the "everlasting fire" spoken of in Matthew 25:41? It means a fire that will constantly burn until it consumes everything upon which it feeds, and none shall be able to hinder its destructive work until it is finished. Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked Canaanite cities that were destroyed nearly 1,900 years before Christ, "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7).

2 Peter 2:6 declares that God turning "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly."

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles
of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.
Malachi 4:3
 

Magenta

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The death referred to is the death of the spirit.
Hello Toast and Tea :) We are born into a state of spiritual death, and are quickened to life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. Those who are dead are not given life to be tortured forever after. Even at the resurrection and judgment of all, they are called the dead. They are judged under the law according to their works and then cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and then death itself is the last enemy to be destroyed when it too is cast into the lake of fire.

Why do people want to ascribe characteristics to God that God Himself finds abhorrent?

A good, loving, just, and merciful God is the One I know.
 

Magenta

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An article on Soul Sleep was already quoted and refuted. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism go hand in hand and a distinctive of the cults.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers Deut 31:16a

God said Moses would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers 2 Sam 7:12a

God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his
fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
1 Kings 1:21

Again, God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away
my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt
seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Job 7:21

Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:12

Again Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

Daniel attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead,
but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matt 9:24

Just as they scorned the words of Jesus, who likened death to sleep...
you reject the Words of Jesus and make Him a cultist.


And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this
ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mark 5:39

Again Jesus likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52

Need I say it again? Those with ears to hear, let him hear. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:11

Jesus again likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell
on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:36

How many times must it be said?

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thess 4:14
 

ToastAndTea

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And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers Deut 31:16a

God said Moses would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers 2 Sam 7:12a

God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his
fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
1 Kings 1:21

Again, God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away
my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt
seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Job 7:21

Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:12

Again Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

Daniel attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead,
but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matt 9:24

Just as they scorned the words of Jesus, who likened death to sleep...
you reject the Words of Jesus and make Him a cultist.


And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this
ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mark 5:39

Again Jesus likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52

Need I say it again? Those with ears to hear, let him hear. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:11

Jesus again likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell
on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:36

How many times must it be said?

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thess 4:14
In each of those verses, the sleep referred to is the sleep of the body (in death), not the soul. Your spirit and soul (mind, will and emotions) is existent, though your body is dead. As is shown in the story of Lazarus (although most seem to ignore it, can't think why).
 

ToastAndTea

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Hello Toast and Tea :) We are born into a state of spiritual death, and are quickened to life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. Those who are dead are not given life to be tortured forever after. Even at the resurrection and judgment of all, they are called the dead. They are judged under the law according to their works and then cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and then death itself is the last enemy to be destroyed when it too is cast into the lake of fire.

Why do people want to ascribe characteristics to God that God Himself finds abhorrent?

A good, loving, just, and merciful God is the One I know.
The God I know is Just, Loving and Merciful as well. In fact, He was so loving He sent His only son to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sin so that we would not have to face an eternity of separation from Him. This is what people don't get. Hell is to be apart from God, forever and ever, for eternity. It's not a 5 second burnout in a physical fire. You are separated from your creator, who loves you and desires a relationship with you, for ETERNITY. If we were to be burned up, never to exist again, what would be the point of Christ's sacrifice? He died so we could be saved, from what exactly? If I knew that I could live whatever way I wanted to and at the end of existence I would cease to exist, I wouldn't care two hoots about having a relationship with Christ.
 

FollowHisSteps

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I thin you're little thesis left out how there is going to be greater punishment, and less tolerable for some on Judgement day.

Mark 12:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
40 who devour widows’ houses, and [a]for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive GREATER condemnation.”

Matthew 11:20-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum,who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Luke 12:47-48 New King James Version (NKJV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

As far as lost loved ones, first off our full attention is going to be on Jesus in His Presence. Secondly, I think it likely at some point, maybe right after Jesus wipes away our tears at seeing loved ones paying for their sin, we will remember them no more.
A phrase here for me is interesting "we will remember them no more"

This is brutal. These people we have loved yet now we just forget them.

Sin, without Gods love washing and purifying the soul is a stinking mess, without order or consistency.
I suspect when we see ourselves and others as God sees us, we will see the total emptiness and futility
of sinners, and the wonder of beauty of Gods work in His people.

The sad thing will be, what we held dear in those we were close to, will truly be seen as just a shadow
of the good, eaten up by sin, which will repulse us, and change how we see them as people.

It was this that Isaiah saw in his vision
5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
Isaiah 6

It is why the sight of God kills us, because we see what we are and how deeply we fail even in our
best aspirations, without Gods Holy transforming work in our hearts. Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

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The God I know is Just, Loving and Merciful as well. In fact, He was so loving He sent His only son to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sin so that we would not have to face an eternity of separation from Him. This is what people don't get. Hell is to be apart from God, forever and ever, for eternity. It's not a 5 second burnout in a physical fire. You are separated from your creator, who loves you and desires a relationship with you, for ETERNITY. If we were to be burned up, never to exist again, what would be the point of Christ's sacrifice? He died so we could be saved, from what exactly? If I knew that I could live whatever way I wanted to and at the end of existence I would cease to exist, I wouldn't care two hoots about having a relationship with Christ.
This is an interesting proposal. Meaning in life in your description is only given because there might
be consequences in Gods judgement, not that sinful behaviour is destructive and hurtful to those one
loves here and now. Not only that sinful behaviour leads to hurt, damage and destruction of things one
holds dear.

The reason why addicts lose their jobs, family, house and money is because it destroys what they are and
what they can do. The often die, because the depression and failure is too great. Similarly with others who
pursue fame and money, when it fails they wonder at the lost years and the people they have hurt along
the way.

But all this appears to be forgotten in your argument.
It is also why I believe in Jesus, because His way is the way to life, love and eternity, here on earth and
when we meet Him in the sky, Amen.