What is Hell ? A small study help

[LW97]

I tried to believe in the salvation of all but there are too many loopholes. That would be equal to purgatory, so no, I do not believe in the salvation of all, also known as "apocatastasis".

Matthew 7:13-14 makes it clear enough. I do not know the original texts good enough

Part I
For the unfaithful, Hell begins at the time of death in Hades. The real event of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us that both Lazarus and the rich man died, but their spirits departed from there bodies and went down into Hades. There were/are two separate areas of Hades, one a place of comfort/paradise which is where Lazarus and Abraham were and the other place was/is a place of real torment in real flame. There is no symbolism here, as the real names of Lazarus, Abraham and Moses are used, as well as the literal location of Hades. This is the area where the rich man went, still is and will remain until he is resurrected out Hades with the rest of the unrighteous dead at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15). Once they have been officially judged, they will then be thrown into the lake of fire separated from God for eternity, conscious and aware in torment in flame.

There are three individual words translated as "hell"

Tartaroo/Tartartus = Used once in 2 peter 2:4 and referred to in Jude 6, which is most likely describing the place under the earth where God put the angels who sinned by taking wives from the progeny of mankind and had offspring.

Sheol/Hades = Which is where the spirits of the wicked depart to at the time of the death of the body and which is the same place where the rich man went to and still and where he is in real torment, in real flame.

Gehenna = This is another designation for the lake of fire, everlasting fire and the second death. This is the final place of conscious existing punishment. This is the place that was prepared for Satan and his angels and for all who die in their sins by rejecting Christ.



As previously stated, it is not a parable, but Christ was revealing a literal event and giving us a glimpse into what happens to the spirit at the time of death. When it is forced into being a parable, the meaning is distorted. However, if it is read in its plain literal sense, then there is much to be garnered from it.



The above is false! Right in the context, the rich man states that he is in torment in the flame and was asking for actual water to touch his tongue. It would have been what he remembered from being alive, which is that water quenches thirst. There is no symbolism here.



Below is the definition of the

Strong's Concordance
basanos: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture
Original Word: βάσανος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: basanos
Phonetic Spelling: (bas'-an-os)
Definition: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), examination by torture, torture
Usage: torture, torment, examination by torture.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

That examination by torture will be eternal. Notice that the word does not specify an end to the examination by torture. Many people try to use this definition to take away from the fact that punishment is eternal.

[/QUOTE]The punishment indeed is eternal, but that does not equal eternal torment.

 

[LW97]

I am definitely concerned that Lazarus and the Rich Man is a real event, not a parable. Yet, that does not mean there is nothing to discuss. I definitely will not go as far as people like Origen since man has free will therefore I see no way that all will be saved even though I hope I am wrong.
So what is interesting there? The fact that there is no evidence that the rich man was an unbeliever. He may have been just like King Saul. Likewise, we see no evidence of Lazarus being a believer. So we have a question. Does the way where people go after they die change? Did things change with the cross? Is it now no longer the case that all people go to Hades/Sheol after they die? An interesting subject.

 

[Deade]

In Paul's case, his out of body experience could have been when he had been left for dead at one time (Acts 14:19). In any event he was in Heaven and in fact in Paradise.

Actually, when we read the scripture as presented we see it was not Paul that had the experience. Let's read it:

2 Cor. 12:2-5 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, [whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;] such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, [whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities."

So, you see Paul distancing himself from this whole "out or in" the body experience. You notice he is careful not to label it as fake, but he actually glories in it (sarcastically?).

 

[Karraster]

Actually, when we read the scripture as presented we see it was not Paul that had the experience. Let's read it:

2 Cor. 12:2-5 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, [whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;] such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, [whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities."

So, you see Paul distancing himself from this whole "out or in" the body experience. You notice he is careful not to label it as fake, but he actually glories in it (sarcastically?).

I don't think Paul is being sarcastic here. Are there any other examples of him being sarcastic? I don't know of any but would be interested to know because I am after all guessing. As to whether he speaks of himself and 3rd heaven, I have never thought he was speaking of himself but seems everyone I hear says he was speaking of himself...what am I missing? That's just not consistent with his other writings IMO.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I tried to believe in the salvation of all but there are too many loopholes. That would be equal to purgatory, so no, I do not believe in the salvation of all, also known as "apocatastasis".

Matthew 7:13-14 makes it clear enough. I do not know the original texts good enough

The punishment indeed is eternal, but that does not equal eternal torment.[/QUOTE]

The word "torment" is defined as "to torture." Consequently, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to be tortured.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have never thought he was speaking of himself but seems everyone I hear says he was speaking of himself...what am I missing?

The simple fact that at times people can speak of themselves in the third person. Jesus did it all the time.

 

[Karraster]

1 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

so....
In the third person perspective Paul will glory, but in the first person perspective Paul will not glory? Yeah, umm, no that still makes no sense to me. He doesn't name the man but I'd guess it's John. I'm speculating of course.

 

[garee]

The punishment indeed is eternal, but that does not equal eternal torment.

The word "torment" is defined as "to torture." Consequently, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to be tortured.[/QUOTE]

I have yet to find a verse that supports the idea that man is born with a eternal spirit . Not even Adam .

Mankind was subject to death right from the beginning. From the moment Holy Spirit corrupted the whole creation, the wrath of God began .The same that we are seeing today being revealed that someone violated a law of God and death has already come.

Those who do not receive a new born again incorruptible spirit will not rise on the last day. The moment they give up the temporal corrupted spirit it returns to the our father, and the corrupted dust returns to the earth from where it came from.

Genesis 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Not until you return home. But what we were before he breathed into non life. . . . dependent on keeping a law.
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The dead know nothing to include pain .Yes, they would have to be alive in order to feel the pain of suffering. Cemeteries are one of the most quietest places to rest. . . dust .

One question? Why would in a series of parables would Jesus throw in a non -parable. How would that apply to the presciptipion for rightly dividing the word of God that without parables Christ spoke not. Did he skip parables for a minute?

What is the nature as to without parables he spoke notto everyone using it as a opotunity to teach the disciple haow to hear and give us the unseen spirit understanding.

Jonas called suffering the pangs of hell. That parable according to the sign and wonders (the last one) compares the suffering unto death (not dead) to that of Christ. A living sacrifice .Three time both cried out and were delivered to finish the work

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice

 

[LW97]

The punishment indeed is eternal, but that does not equal eternal torment.

The word "torment" is defined as "to torture." Consequently, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to be tortured.[/QUOTE]There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed

 

[notuptome]

The word "torment" is defined as "to torture." Consequently, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to be tortured.

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed[/QUOTE]
The wrath of God poured out on sin is not going to be pleasant. It requires all of eternity to satisfy Gods anger toward sin. The soul is like the burning bush that Moses encountered. It burn and is not consumed.

You are on a collision course with apostasy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't think Paul is being sarcastic here. Are there any other examples of him being sarcastic? I don't know of any but would be interested to know because I am after all guessing. As to whether he speaks of himself and 3rd heaven, I have never thought he was speaking of himself but seems everyone I hear says he was speaking of himself...what am I missing? That's just not consistent with his other writings IMO.

Good day Karraster,

Paul is indeed speaking about himself in the third person. In verse 1, he says

"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord," referring to what he saw when he was caught up to the third heaven, which is where he says:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. It is part of his reluctant boasting. Then in verse 6 he says:

"Even if I wanted to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me, or even with these surpassingly great revelations."

The "surpassingly great revelations" is referring to what Paul heard and saw when he was caught up to the third heaven.

 

[LW97]

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed

The wrath of God poured out on sin is not going to be pleasant. It requires all of eternity to satisfy Gods anger toward sin. The soul is like the burning bush that Moses encountered. It burn and is not consumed.

You are on a collision course with apostasy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]I am on a collision course with apostasy? This is another strawman. Do you really like to believe that God is a psychopath?

You said "it is not consumed", Hebrews 10:27 says otherwise.

 

[garee]

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed

The wrath of God poured out on sin is not going to be pleasant. It requires all of eternity to satisfy Gods anger toward sin. The soul is like the burning bush that Moses encountered. It burn and is not consumed.

You are on a collision course with apostasy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

The wrath of God. . . the belly of the whale, called hell is suffering unto death (not dead) It is according to Romans is being revealed. In both the old and new testament as the glory that did follow. . . as the father poured out the cup of wrath on Jesus..crying out for strength to finish We can compare it to that of 3 day of suffering Jonah, a parallel parable testifying beforehand....

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[garee]

Good day Karraster,

Paul is indeed speaking about himself in the third person. In verse 1, he says

"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord," referring to what he saw when he was caught up to the third heaven, which is where he says:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. It is part of his reluctant boasting. Then in verse 6 he says:

"Even if I wanted to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me, or even with these surpassingly great revelations."

The "surpassingly great revelations" is referring to what Paul heard and saw when he was caught up to the third heaven.

Yes, in other word the inspired word of God entered his heart and mind with some information that was not to be revealed as a commandment or law of God to help guard against the oral tradition of men making the word without effect. . Like Peter in the book John .If every revelation from God was recorded their would be no room to store the books and no more trees .It was like the Holy Spirit saying stay out of my private place mind your own business. Do not add to what I say.

Not a approval for "out of the body experiences" as a alternate source of faith . Hollywood stuff.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed

Jerusalem was destroyed, in fact twice. Yet it was still there.. It still existed

The wicked will be destroyed.. It does nto mean they cease to exist.

 

[LW97]

Jerusalem was destroyed, in fact twice. Yet it was still there.. It still existed

The wicked will be destroyed.. It does nto mean they cease to exist.

Well Jerusalem was rebuilt.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well Jerusalem was rebuilt.

Thats beside the point, It was still there..even if it was never rebuilt the place still exists.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The word "torment" is defined as "to torture." Consequently, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to be tortured.

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed[/QUOTE]

Now we have come full circle. I wish that you guys would listen and take note of the words that I am providing for you. The translated word "destruction" or "perish" in reference to the wicked, does not mean annihilation or extinction. Below is a scriptural example and the definition of the Greek word "apoleia" which comes from the base word "apollumi" translated as "destruction."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

=====================================
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being
====================================

Regarding the above definition, please take note of what is highlighted in "Red." The word "apoleia" which is translated as "destruction" in the scripture above, does not imply annihilation, but rather complete loss of well being, ruination. Here is another example of the root word "apollumi."

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

So, the same word is used in the scripture above, does this mean that the disciples were worried about becoming extinct or annihilated? Here's another example of the same word:

"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

Regarding the word the translated word "perish" in the scripture above, is Jesus saying that the wine and the wine skins will become extinct or annihilated? Both of these scriptures are using the same words apoleia and its root word apollumi. Here's another use of the word "apoleia."

"Now some of those present expressed their indignation to one another: “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for over three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor.” And they scolded her. "

In the scripture above, the word "apoleia" is translated as "waste," does that mean that the perfume was annihilated or that it had become extinct? No, but they considered it a waste or "ruined" because she had poured this expensive perfume on Jesus head.

We need to study these words and not rely on the translated English words. The problem is that when the words "destroy or perish" are used, people tend to apply the definition of annihilation or extinction to them, which is false. We need to look at the actual Greek words that are being used and how they are used elsewhere.

 

[LW97]

There is torment, but there is clear evidence that the wicked will be destroyed

Now we have come full circle. I wish that you guys would listen and take note of the words that I am providing for you. The translated word "destruction" or "perish" in reference to the wicked, does not mean annihilation or extinction. Below is a scriptural example and the definition of the Greek word "apoleia" which comes from the base word "apollumi" translated as "destruction."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

=====================================
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being
====================================

Regarding the above definition, please take note of what is highlighted in "Red." The word "apoleia" which is translated as "destruction" in the scripture above, does not imply annihilation, but rather complete loss of well being, ruination. Here is another example of the root word "apollumi."

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

So, the same word is used in the scripture above, does this mean that the disciples were worried about becoming extinct or annihilated? Here's another example of the same word:

"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

Regarding the word the translated word "perish" in the scripture above, is Jesus saying that the wine and the wine skins will become extinct or annihilated. Both of these scriptures are using the same words apoleia and its root word apollumi. Here's another use of the word "apoleia."

"Now some of those present expressed their indignation to one another: “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for over three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor.” And they scolded her. "

In the scripture above, the word "apoleia" is translated as "waste," does that mean that the perfume was annihilated or that it had become extinct? No, but they considered it a waste or "ruined" because she had poured this expensive perfume on Jesus head.

We need to study these words and not rely on the translated English words. The problem is that when the words "destroy or perish" are used, people tend to apply the definition of annihilation or extinction to them, which is false. We need to look at the actual Greek words that are being used and how they are used elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
"Apollymi" can be used for both. If eternal torment is true, then there is no guarantee that the wicked cannot escape the Lake of Fire. Another interesting word is the word "aion(ious)", which can mean "eternal" or "eternity" like in Matthew 25:46, but not always, like in Matthew 24:3. This word is not the clearest one that can be translated as "eternal", "always" or "forever". "pantote" which is used in Verses like Philippians 4:4 is even clearer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Apollymi" can be used for both. If eternal torment is true, then there is no guarantee that the wicked cannot escape the Lake of Fire. Another interesting word is the word "aion(ious)", which can mean "eternal" or "eternity" like in Matthew 25:46, but not always, like in Matthew 24:3. This word is not the clearest one that can be translated as "eternal", "always" or "forever". "pantote" which is used in Verses like Philippians 4:4 is even clearer.

Can you learn to quote please. I read the whole post and I thought it was you who was writting only to find it was not.

Your thought that eternal torment can not guarantee the wicked cannot escape the lake of fire what does this mean? The guarantee they can nto escape is jesus died once, He is not going to die a second time for them.