Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[DeighAnn]

Thought this might be easier to read this way.


When you were dead When you were dead νεκροὺς
(nekrous)3498: deada prim. word, the same as nekus (a dead body)

in your transgressions in your transgressions παραπτώμασιν
(paraptōmasin)3900: a false step, a trespassfrom parapiptóand

the uncircumcision the uncircumcision ἀκροβυστίᾳ
(akrobustia) 203: the prepuce, foreskin, hence uncircumcision of uncertain origin

of your fleshof your flesh,σαρκὸς
(sarkos) 4561: flesha prim. word

He made you alive together He made you alive together rσυνεζωοποίησεν
(sunezōopoiēsen) 4806: to make alive together with from sun and zóopoieó

with Him, having forgiven with Him, having forgiven χαρισάμενος
(charisamenos) 5483: to show favor, give freely

from from charisus allπάντα
(panta) 3956: all, everya prim. word

our transgressions,our transgressions, παραπτώματ
(paraptōmata)3900: a false step, a trespass from parapiptó

having canceled having canceled ἐξαλείψας
(exaleipsas)1813: to wipe out, erase, obliteratefrom ek and aleiphóout

the certificate of debt the certificate of debt χειρόγραφον
(cheirographon)5498:

a (handwritten) document, legal note, bondfrom cheir and graphóconsisting

of decrees of decrees δόγμασιν
(dogmasin)1378: an opinion, (a public) decree

from from dokeó againstκαθ’
(kath)2596: down, against, according to preposition of uncertain originus,

which which ὃ
(o)3739: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, thata prim. pronoun

was hostile was hostile ὑπεναντίον
(upenantion)5227: set over against, opposite

from hupo and enantiosto

us, and He has taken us; and He has taken ἦρκεν
(ērken)142: to raise, take up, lifta prim. verbit


out of the way out of the way ,μέσου
(mesou)3319: middle, in the midsta prim. word


having nailed having nailed προσηλώσας
(prosēlōsas)4338: to nail to from pros and a derivation of hélosit


to the cross to the cross.σταυρῷ
(staurō)4716: an upright stake, hence a cross (the Rom. instrument of crucifixion)from the same as histémi

 

[Noose]

Have you not noticed that you, yourself, have gone through ALL the conditions of the soil on your way to coming to Christ and being saved?

Don't you understand the scripture that says no temptation has come upon you that is not common to man?

I suppose the seed falling on the rocky ground is common. I suppose the seed growing for a few minutes and then withering is also common.

I would bet that the seed going into good ground and producing lots of fruit is not so common.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

My understanding is that the seed means faith. It is our duty to nurture faith otherwise we can loose faith.

 

[DeighAnn]

Born of water is the physical birth that all humans go through, born from above is the work of the Holy Spirit which brings salvation.

Repentance means a change of mind, away from one thing towards another this happened when I was born from above

I was born from above/regenerated when I received the gift of salvation..... this occured when I believed/faith upon Christ Jesus as my Saviour, believing He took on all my sins and paid a debt that was not His on mt behalf.....

.... that all my works were as filthy rags (repented, away from my dead works to Christ), coming into agreement with God (faith) that He made the full payment and declared me innocent of all trespasses.

In that transaction by faith I received and was sealed by Holy Spirit, Justified, Reconciled, Redeemed, Regenerated and Sanctified.

Baptism (the ritual in a church) occurred later as sign/declaration of my rebirth.

Thank you for the clarification. It is very clear from these statement further discussion is unnecessary at this time. Thank you once again and keep up with the studies.

 

[Noose]

Christ doesn’t do the works for us, but He works in us and all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful, as we saw with the 4th soil in Matthew 13:23. Those who produce no fruit/no crop are not truly converted. The soils that fail to produce, do so because the seed/the word was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

And whose fault is if the word is not firmly rooted? is it something that they did or did not do or is it Christ who did not choose them?

 

[DeighAnn]

We may be at an impasse as we have a fundamental difference in "born from above" along with born of water. Am I correct that your belief is you are born from above when you are baptized? and this is also when you are born of water?

Do you repent only on day of baptism?

I will take it that your reply of the "wrench" icon to mean "Yes, you repent on the day of your baptism once and never again". If this is incorrect please let me know. Thank you

 

[BillG]

My understanding is that the seed means faith. It is our duty to nurture faith otherwise we can loose faith.

What do you mean by its our duty to nurture faith?

I think it's the Holy Spirit in us who nurtures our faith.
We have to co-operate with him working in us.

Jesus walked with his disciples.
Jesus in us wants to walk with us.

For me its not me but us.

Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to convey?

 

[UnderGrace]

So I went to the interlinear and followed by the Lexicon and future sins forgiven, not here that I can find. Could you show me how you arrive at that Please?

2532 And 4771 you 3498 dead 1510 being 1772 in 3588 the 3900 trepass 2532 and 3588 in the 203 circumcism 3588 of the
4516 flesh 4771 of you 4806 he made alive together 4771 you 4862 with 846 Him 5483 having forgiven 1473 us 3956 all 3588 the
1813 having blotted out 3588 the 2596 against 1473 us 5498 handwriting 3588 in the 1378 decrees 3739 which 1510 was 5227 adverse 1473 to us 2532 and 846 it 142 He has taken 1537 out of 3588 the 3319 way 4338 having nailed it to the 4716 cross


When you were deadνεκροὺς
(nekrous)3498: deada prim. word, the same as nekus (a dead body)in your transgressionsπαραπτώμασιν
(paraptōmasin)3900: a false step, a trespassfrom parapiptóand the uncircumcision ἀκροβυστίᾳ
(akrobustia)203: the prepuce, foreskin, hence uncircumcisionof uncertain originof your flesh,σαρκὸς
(sarkos)4561: flesha prim. word He made you alive togetherσυνεζωοποίησεν
(sunezōopoiēsen)4806: to make alive together withfrom sun and zóopoieówith Him, having forgivenχαρισάμενος
(charisamenos)5483: to show favor, give freelyfrom charisus allπάντα
(panta)3956: all, everya prim. wordour transgressions,παραπτώματ
(paraptōmata)3900: a false step, a trespassfrom parapiptó

having canceledἐξαλείψας
(exaleipsas)1813: to wipe out, erase, obliteratefrom ek and aleiphóout the certificate of debtχειρόγραφον
(cheirographon)5498: a (handwritten) document, legal note, bondfrom cheir and graphóconsisting of decreesδόγμασιν
(dogmasin)1378: an opinion, (a public) decreefrom dokeóagainstκαθ’
(kath)2596: down, against, according topreposition of uncertain originus, whichὃ
(o)3739: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, thata prim. pronounwas hostileὑπεναντίον
(upenantion)5227: set over against, oppositefrom hupo and enantiosto us; and He has takenἦρκεν
(ērken)142: to raise, take up, lifta prim. verbit out of the way,μέσου
(mesou)3319: middle, in the midsta prim. wordhaving nailedπροσηλώσας
(prosēlōsas)4338: to nail tofrom pros and a derivation of hélosit to the cross.σταυρῷ
(staurō)4716: an upright stake, hence a cross (the Rom. instrument of crucifixion)from the same as histémi

I am not sure how you cannot see it, it is right there, all sins past present and future were forgiven and nailed to the cross, all sins were dealt with at that time so He forgave all sins at that time.

God no longer has to decide to forgive us on a day to day basis, He made that decision before the foundation of the world.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

[Noose]

Because they don't believe.

They don't believe it is Christ that works in them.

They believe carnally that they must cultivate in themselves what only Christ cultivates.


Shouldn't be too hard for you to see this.

The parable clearly shows that the seed grew in some soil for a season but failed to produce fruit later. Is it that Christ started something in them but could not finish or is it that they failed to hold on to faith?

 

[UnderGrace]

I will take it that your reply of the "wrench" icon to mean "Yes, you repent on the day of your baptism once and never again". If this is incorrect please let me know. Thank you

Yes I would state that is correct, I changed my mind once. ... I do not keep changing my mind.

 

[UnderGrace]

What do you mean by its our duty to nurture faith?

I think it's the Holy Spirit in us who nurtures our faith.
We have to co-operate with him working in us.

Jesus walked with his disciples.
Jesus in us wants to walk with us.

For me its not me but us.

Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to convey?

Faith is simply coming into agreement with God, or stated another way taking a stand where God takes His stand.

 

[Noose]

What do you mean by its our duty to nurture faith?

I think it's the Holy Spirit in us who nurtures our faith.
We have to co-operate with him working in us.

Jesus walked with his disciples.
Jesus in us wants to walk with us.

For me its not me but us.

Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to convey?

Rev 2:
‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

Rev 3: 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it.

The Holy spirit gives us understanding and that's all. We are to hold on until the end.

 

[DeighAnn]

And whose fault is if the word is not firmly rooted? is it something that they did or did not do or is it Christ who did not choose them?

Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. Hopefully this will answer your question

Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[UnderGrace]

My understanding is that the seed means faith. It is our duty to nurture faith otherwise we can loose faith.

The faith becomes inoperative, useless.

 

[BillG]

Rev 2:
‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

Rev 3: 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it.

The Holy spirit gives us understanding and that's all. We are to hold on until the end.

Ok.

So much you were not really asking to receive another person's thoughts.

BTW I never said it was a burden.
I said it's a two way thing.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Faith is simply coming into agreement with God, or stated another way taking a stand where God takes His stand.

Amen faith is coming into agreement with God who was going to destroy Nineveh because of their sinful
behaviour and sends sinners to the lack of fire because of their sin.

And God agrees that we need to repent of evil and do good.
Praise God you agree with God and His words, Amen.

 

[Noose]

Hense OSAS
A person has to choose to be saved or as I usually say,say yes to obedience of faith.Then GOD does a work creating our spirits Perfect but until GOD DES a work you are trying to be righteous In your own strength and you will come up short.

Loving one another as commanded by God is our work IMO.

Matt 25:
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

Do you believe it was Jesus who fed Himself through these people or do you believe these people voluntarily obeyed His (Christ's) command to love others?

 

[Noose]

Ok.

So much you were not really asking to receive another person's thoughts.

BTW I never said it was a burden.
I said it's a two way thing.

My point is, Jesus can not be instructing us to hold on something and then run behind our backs to hold it up Himself. It is your job to hold up what you are supposed to hold up and that is faith otherwise you loose it.

 

[BillG]

The Holy spirit gives us understanding and that's all. We are to hold on until the end.

So the Holy Spirit does not work in us to conform us to the image of God?

He just enlightens us?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The faith becomes inoperative, useless.

Jesus says if we have useless faith we will be destroyed and burnt up. God bless you.

6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15

 

[DeighAnn]

My understanding is that the seed means faith. It is our duty to nurture faith otherwise we can loose faith.

Study to show yourself approved. Seek and you shall find. Actions on our part. Yes, we must DO.

Not 4 the 5 or NFTF. (Sanctification, Salvation, Justific......)