Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: if you have genuine faith, love in your heart, patience, forgiveness, etc, you are holy and will be saved. Those who think that Jesus paid for ALL our sins (past and future) most probably will not be saved.

But I thought you say you teach salvation by grace? This is not grace. This is a whole lotta work here my friend.. I think the opposite. That people who think their final destiny is based on what they do or do not do are probably not saved.

People who don't have love in their hearts, who don't have patience and who don't forgive others, are not holy and therefore will not see God, i.e., will not be saved.

I know most theologians teach that salvation is by grace through faith + NOTHING and this oversimplification leads many to self destruction. A co-worker of mine claimed that he could die while in bed with another woman and yet be saved. Even unbelievers made fun of him: "Oh, tell me where your church is located; I'll apply for membership as soon as possible".

We can see in Gal 5:22 that the Greek word πίστις (faith) is translated FAITHFULNESS and I think that in all contexts related to salvation the Greek word πίστις involves faithfulness.

Even idolaters have "faith", but only faithful Christians have genuine faith (faith + faithfulness).

 

[Grandpa]

why is it a person would sooner call Christ ignorant than accept that they themselves are the ones who lack understanding in what they read?

smh

i don't understand scripture. i freely confess it
the Bible is complex and profound beyond anything in the universe.
surely it is fulfilled in me also, when i say to someone, i don't think you understand what you are reading, that the same is true of me, that i thereby accuse.

but i know enough that the lack of knowledge is on my part, not God's

I think it is really awesome when you read scripture a certain way for a long time and you think you know what it says.

Then later it is opened to you to understand it a different way.

The Lord Jesus says things in the gospels that are a play on words a lot. The Lord Jesus phrases things in the gospels in certain ways that leaves the intent of His Words hidden from people by there being several different ways to interpret His Words.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Depending on a persons belief the comma in this sentence is either in the correct place or it is not.

Not sure that it really matters in the big picture but its interesting to me how this simple sentence can be interpreted in different ways depending on ones belief.


You would think that a person would keep their belief(s) open a little so that scripture could change their incomplete knowledge when it was needed or when it was time. Instead of twisting scripture around to make it fit into a small box (their belief).

But I guess we all do that maybe a little. In order for scripture to interpret scripture and in order for our beliefs to continue to fit what we know and what we believe.

 

[DeighAnn]

Addendum;

Heb 5:1-14 NIV Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. (2) He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. (3) This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. (4) No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. (5) So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (6) And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." (7) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. (8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered (9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him (10) and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. (11) We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. (12) In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! (13) Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. (14) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.




Heb 6:1-12 NIV Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, (2) instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (3) And God permitting, we will do so. (4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (7) Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. (8) But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. (9) Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. (10) God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. (11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. (12) We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

A couple of great sections, favorites of mine. Human rational for Godly situations. No matter what we surmise, rest assure it was done perfectly as God wanted it. The rest is speculation.

 

[DeighAnn]

People who don't have love in their hearts, who don't have patience and who don't forgive others, are not holy and therefore will not see God, i.e., will not be saved.

I know most theologians teach that salvation is by grace through faith + NOTHING and this oversimplification leads many to self destruction. A co-worker of mine claimed that he could die while in bed with another woman and yet be saved. Even unbelievers made fun of him: "Oh, tell me where your church is located; I'll apply for membership as soon as possible".

We can see in Gal 5:22 that the Greek word πίστις (faith) is translated FAITHFULNESS and I think that in all contexts related to salvation the Greek word πίστις involves faithfulness.

Even idolaters have "faith", but only faithful Christians have genuine faith (faith + faithfulness).

faith + repentance

 

[SimpleGardner]

I think it is really awesome when you read scripture a certain way for a long time and you think you know what it says.

Then later it is opened to you to understand it a different way.

The Lord Jesus says things in the gospels that are a play on words a lot. The Lord Jesus phrases things in the gospels in certain ways that leaves the intent of His Words hidden from people by there being several different ways to interpret His Words.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Depending on a persons belief the comma in this sentence is either in the correct place or it is not.

Not sure that it really matters in the big picture but its interesting to me how this simple sentence can be interpreted in different ways depending on ones belief.


You would think that a person would keep their belief(s) open a little so that scripture could change their incomplete knowledge when it was needed or when it was time. Instead of twisting scripture around to make it fit into a small box (their belief).

But I guess we all do that maybe a little. In order for scripture to interpret scripture and in order for our beliefs to continue to fit what we know and what we believe.

Awesome and humbling to say the least!

Isa 28:9-13 KJV Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (13) But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


1Co 8:2 KJV And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

 

[Marcelo]

faith + repentance

You can add that too! But I think repentance precedes genuine faith. If you have true faith (which involves faithfulness) it is understood that you have repented from your sins.

 

[SimpleGardner]

You can add that too! But I think repentance precedes genuine faith. If you have true faith (which involves faithfulness) it is understood that you have repented from your sins.

Ahh yes,

Good way to look at it. Each man who is "called" is given a "measure of faith" which either inspires the Godly Sorrow which leads to repentance of is inspired by the Godly Sorrow...or maybe both!

 

[Dan_473]

Greetings PH,

I just returned from a long drive...a pre apology for any typos and repeating myself/

We have scriptural evidence that God can work outside of the Natural Laws of Time and Space. In fact many would argue that our perception of what Natural Law it is an aberration of actual Nature. But that's for another day. Here we are.
But, Moral laws. Without getting in over my head let me ask as simply as I can; Do you find any evidence that God cannot violate The Moral Laws He has given to man?

Hi SimpleGardner,

I know that you wrote the above question to posthuman, but I wanted to ask a question if I may to clarify.

Which laws exactly are the moral laws of God?

For example is mixing linen and wool a moral law? I suppose God could do that, and wear it, but would he? I don't know.

Or the example of do not allow a sorceress to live. Clearly, there are many people living who practice sorcery, and God is allowing them to live.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hi SimpleGardner,

I know that you wrote the above question to posthuman, but I wanted to ask a question if I may to clarify.

Which laws exactly are the moral laws of God?

For example is mixing linen and wool a moral law? I suppose God could do that, and wear it, but would he? I don't know.

Or the example of do not allow a sorceress to live. Clearly, there are many people living who practice sorcery, and God is allowing them to live.

Is God allowing them to live? Has the time of judgement by God come? Didn't He deputize Israel to execute those enumerated judgements?

So you are wanting to separate the ceremonial and the moral laws? Do you keep them?

 

[DeighAnn]

How do we learn something? We keep trying, over and over making mistakes until one day, we get it right.

Just as we do on our journey to walk with the Lord. Once we have come to knowledge, and are baptized, we also have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us, to lead us and keep us on that path. If we can, by obedience, keep trying and trying we end up one step closer to walking the way Christ did. We end up more Christ like. It takes effort on our parts. When we do step into our celestial bodies our spirit and soul has already been in training for our whole flesh life, we are disciplined, like disciples. Jesus was here doing. We are told to go "do". Don't let that ever be made bad. Go, teach, baptize. YOU GO.

Can you see "the light" in their walk? Those who not only love and accept the gifts of God, but who work the work of God, shine. They are a light. They are different that those of the flesh sinful mind, Their fruits are seen in how they speak. What they say, how they say it, what they do, how they work it.
Yes, you can. It shines bright. It shines out through the darkness.
Can you "spot" those do not discipline themselves. Who do not hold themselves accountable? Those who are not "progressing" through obedience to the Word retain without repentance, the ways of the flesh. You feel it in the very words they use.

From the day we are baptized, washed clean of all past sin, a new creature walking, it is our duty to strive to be better. It is a journey. How long is it before we sin again? Doesn't matter. We all sin. But what do we do is different than before. We no longer accept that as "who we are", we repent. And repent is something we will do a lot of because without repentance there is no faith in God. And there can be no faith without repentance.

No longer do the "outbursts" of the flesh, things such as anger and sarcasm, impatience and abuse rule, but the love and meekness and humility of us in the Lord does. We are by no means perfect. Shoot, we were born in sin. It isn't like God doesn't know this. He wants to know what do we do with this. What are we doing with the life He gave us? Are we bringing Him pleasure? Is He watching us trying to please Him or just doing our own thing. Are we "progressing" towards perfection, or dancing in the dust.

The longer we discipline ourselves in the way of the Lord, the less we do and feel the way of flesh. Soon, when we act out as a flesh man it feels "UN natural" for us. It is becoming un natural. We love the ways of God therefore we do the ways of God.

You will know them by their fruit. Every post here is a piece of fruit. Who's your daddy? At the end of the day, when that basket of fruit is all collected does it scream our "I love the Lord" or is it screaming out something else. If it is something else, repent and come to the Lord.

 

[DeighAnn]

Ok. I am ready.
Weren't all the ceremonial laws fulfilled by the Lamb of God?

 

[Dan_473]

Is God allowing them to live? Has the time of judgement by God come? Didn't He deputize Israel to execute those enumerated judgements?

So you are wanting to separate the ceremonial and the moral laws? Do you keep them?

Yes, God is allowing them to live. God's judgment is an ongoing process, I believe. Yes, God deputized Israel to execute them. But one free moral agent not keeping the law does not give another free moral agent leave not to keep the law as well, I believe.

No, actually I don't want to separate the ceremonial and the moral law. My position is that it can't be done in practice. I know that many people will dispute endlessly about the theory of law keeping, but it's extremely rare to find someone who will talk at any length about the details, and how they separate them out and practice them.

Why not simply put up a list of the moral laws? Many Jewish websites have a list of the traditional 613. Taking away the ceremonial or civil laws should leave a very workable sized list.

Of all the people I've asked for a list of what they feel are the moral laws, I think only two have even attempted. And they gave up shortly thereafter.

 

[DeighAnn]

Or the example of do not allow a sorceress to live. Clearly, there are many people living who practice sorcery, and God is allowing them to live.

Yes, God is allowing them to live. God's judgment is an ongoing process, I believe. Yes, God deputized Israel to execute them. But one free moral agent not keeping the law does not give another free moral agent leave not to keep the law as well, I believe.

No, actually I don't want to separate the ceremonial and the moral law. My position is that it can't be done in practice. I know that many people will dispute endlessly about the theory of law keeping, but it's extremely rare to find someone who will talk at any length about the details, and how they separate them out and practice them.

Why not simply put up a list of the moral laws? Many Jewish websites have a list of the traditional 613. Taking away the ceremonial or civil laws should leave a very workable sized list.

Of all the people I've asked for a list of what they feel are the moral laws, I think only two have even attempted. And they gave up shortly thereafter.

Aren't all those part of the 1st Covenant?

 

[DeighAnn]

(my response)
Agreed. One can ONLY "connect the dots" one can see.
[/QUOTE]
In the beginning was the Word. Do you think the Word, though always being the Living Word, and becoming God in the flesh also, was make like a son who has to start at the bottom of a big business and learn everything from the ground up, and we may be given partial recordings of such events?
If so, do you think that, wait, do you think there was an age before this one?

 

[Dan_473]

Aren't all those part of the 1st Covenant?

Hi DeighAnn

I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean aren't the 613 traditional laws part of the first covenant? If that's what you're asking, I would say yes those are part of the old covenant.

 

[DeighAnn]

Hi DeighAnn

I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean aren't the 613 traditional laws part of the first covenant? If that's what you're asking, I would say yes those are part of the old covenant.

Yep looked it up then yes, they are all spiritual now except for the ones done away with

 

[SimpleGardner]

Yes, God is allowing them to live. God's judgment is an ongoing process, I believe. Yes, God deputized Israel to execute them. But one free moral agent not keeping the law does not give another free moral agent leave not to keep the law as well, I believe.

No, actually I don't want to separate the ceremonial and the moral law. My position is that it can't be done in practice. I know that many people will dispute endlessly about the theory of law keeping, but it's extremely rare to find someone who will talk at any length about the details, and how they separate them out and practice them.

Why not simply put up a list of the moral laws? Many Jewish websites have a list of the traditional 613. Taking away the ceremonial or civil laws should leave a very workable sized list.

Of all the people I've asked for a list of what they feel are the moral laws, I think only two have even attempted. And they gave up shortly thereafter.

So, are you saying you would agree with eliminating all the people who practice sorcery in your area? I'm not being a Smart xxx.

The essential core or your questions must be reckoned with at the Civil level with a universal and active priesthood!

There are actions that the priesthood had responsibility for and some that the Civil authority did. Both were/are part of Gods order. They could not cross over into one anothers domain so to speak. Probably what was meant by the phrase "separation between church and state"

Certainly God intends on His judgements being kept for the order of His creation. We neglect this at our own peril. Murderers, theives, adulterers, sorcerers etc.

 

[Dan_473]

Yep looked it up then yes, they are all spiritual now except for the ones done away with

Do you mean you looked up the 613 laws? And of those you feel some were done away with? And the others are to be done spiritually?

So for example, the commandment about resting on the Sabbath means that we rest spiritually on the Sabbath, and every other day I would hope, it does not relate to physical rest?

 

[DeighAnn]

All and every law or command or ordinance that had to do with "Blood" is gone. The Lamb of God was the perfect blood sacrifice and God wants our love. No circumcise, that is blood. Now of the heart, on the inside. Sabbath as a "particular" day is gone, We rest in Jesus everyday. He is a part of our lives, not just a day. 7th day wasn't made for God by was made for man. All "613" (never registered before)
were done away with "on paper" and written inside us, not one place but two. It made the laws "individual" and "spiritual" The Holy Spirit convicts each of us different.

So, are you saying you would agree with eliminating all the people who practice sorcery in your area? I'm not being a Smart xxx.

The essential core or your questions must be reckoned with at the Civil level with a universal and active priesthood!

There are actions that the priesthood had responsibility for and some that the Civil authority did. Both were/are part of Gods order. They could not cross over into one anothers domain so to speak. Probably what was meant by the phrase "separation between church and state"

Certainly God intends on His judgements being kept for the order of His creation. We neglect this at our own peril. Murderers, theives, adulterers, sorcerers etc.

I think the only ones we are allowed to eliminate are murderers and rapists, and to that, I say to the mother, or father, or brother of the one hurt, Hand me a couple stones, let us send this soul back to God so that he may face his accuser and get his trial going. And for the ones we make a mistake with, God is just so he will have a reward there.

 

[Dan_473]

So, are you saying you would agree with eliminating all the people who practice sorcery in your area? I'm not being a Smart xxx.

The essential core or your questions must be reckoned with at the Civil level with a universal and active priesthood!

There are actions that the priesthood had responsibility for and some that the Civil authority did. Both were/are part of Gods order. They could not cross over into one anothers domain so to speak. Probably what was meant by the phrase "separation between church and state"

Certainly God intends on His judgements being kept for the order of His creation. We neglect this at our own peril. Murderers, theives, adulterers, sorcerers etc.

The law about not mixing linen and wool was to be handled at the civil level?

No, I don't advocate executing sorcerers, because I don't think the letter of the law of Moses is to be followed by Christians today. And one reason I think that is because of the impracticality of separating the moral, civil, and ceremonial parts of the law. The law looks to me like a single unit, it can't be divided up by humans, and I can't see that the scriptures divide it up.

it sounds like you feel that the law is to be separated into ceremonial, civil, and moral sections. Do you have a list for your own personal use of the moral laws?