Free Will verses Fate/Divine Intervention: Judas Iscariot "free will" verses Saul/Paul "fate"

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Dec 12, 2013
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#41
If you feel my words have judged you in any way; I am sorry that was in no way my intent and I will try my best to not do it again. Sometimes I feel I am over zealous, if you feel I have offended you please forgive me.
For honestly's your correct in your assumtion that I cannot handle heat, my preference of course is peace and love over strife and heat. As for the end times when "the crap really hits the fan for believers" I will trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
You did not offend me and please do not be so easily offended.....I am blunt, forward, and the Marine in me just states facts without tact.....do not think for one minute that I do not like peace and or am not motivated by LOVE....I am .....the LOVE of the truth....and even the SONS OF THUNDER were chosen and used by JESUS........
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#42
Thank-you for your input, scriptural references to go with them would be appreciated. I cannot judge Judas' heart only GOD can do that.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. GOD be with you
judge not etc does not mean you sit placidly by and let it rain without an umbrella on your head

are you Judas? did you sell Jesus for 30 pieces of silver? did you then kill yourself in regret?

you can't judge that?

to judge means to form an opinion AFTER the facts are in. we can judge Judas actions and we can believe what scripture states regarding who he was. this is what scripture states concerning him...

1. he is called the son of perdition (source)

The title “son of perdition” is used twice in the New Testament, first in John 17:12 and again in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The phrase simply means “man doomed to destruction” and is not reserved for any one individual. In fact, there are two people to which the title “son of perdition” is applied. In context, John 17:12 is referring to Judas Iscariot, while 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the “man of lawlessness”—the Antichrist—who will appear in the end times before Christ’s return.

A good picture of a person who is a “son of perdition” appears in Hebrews 6:4–8, which describes a person who, like Judas, has experienced a certain closeness to God and has a good understanding of salvation, but then denies it. Instead of bearing good fruit, he bears “thorns and thistles.” This is a person who sees the path to salvation, which is trusting in God’s grace to cover sin (Ephesians 2:8–9), and instead either flatly denies the existence of God or denies God’s gift of salvation, preferring to pay his own debt. Judas chose the second path, punishing himself by suicide instead of accepting grace.

2.
For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born. Mark 14:21

and here are another 30 verses about Judas and what Jesus has to say about him


as for judging, it does not mean never ever form an opinion or understand or avoid or DISCERN

to discern is a biblical concept and it means to see what is really going on (oversimplified explanation but a person can look it up and probably should in the dictionary and then in scripture to get the full understanding)

Question: "What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?" (source)

Answer: Jesus’ command not to judge others could be the most widely quoted of His sayings, even though it is almost invariably quoted in complete disregard of its context. Here is Jesus’ statement: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). Many people use this verse in an attempt to silence their critics, interpreting Jesus’ meaning as “You don’t have the right to tell me I’m wrong.” Taken in isolation, Jesus’ command “Do not judge” does indeed seem to preclude all negative assessments. However, there is much more to the passage than those three words.

The Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean we cannot show discernment. Immediately after Jesus says, “Do not judge,” He says, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs” (Matthew 7:6). A little later in the same sermon, He says, “Watch out for false prophets. . . . By their fruit you will recognize them” (verses 15–16). How are we to discern who are the “dogs” and “pigs” and “false prophets” unless we have the ability to make a judgment call on doctrines and deeds? Jesus is giving us permission to tell right from wrong.

Also, the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean all actions are equally moral or that truth is relative. The Bible clearly teaches that truth is objective, eternal, and inseparable from God’s character. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie—but, of course, to call something a “lie” is to pass judgment. To call adultery or murder a sin is likewise to pass judgment—but it’s also to agree with God. When Jesus said not to judge others, He did not mean that no one can identify sin for what it is, based on God’s definition of sin.

And the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean there should be no mechanism for dealing with sin. The Bible has a whole book entitled Judges. The judges in the Old Testament were raised up by God Himself (Judges 2:18). The modern judicial system, including its judges, is a necessary part of society. In saying, “Do not judge,” Jesus was not saying, “Anything goes.”

more in following post. I included ALL of it because so many people do not understand that we should judge...discern...and make the false assumption that we just turn away from wrong and do nothing about it and say 'oh I should not judge'

that is false. you should judge but using the following guidelines
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#43
Elsewhere, Jesus gives a direct command to judge: “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly” (John 7:24). Here we have a clue as to the right type of judgment versus the wrong type. Taking this verse and some others, we can put together a description of the sinful type of judgment:

Superficial judgment is wrong. Passing judgment on someone based solely on appearances is sinful (John 7:24). It is foolish to jump to conclusions before investigating the facts (Proverbs 18:13). Simon the Pharisee passed judgment on a woman based on her appearance and reputation, but he could not see that the woman had been forgiven; Simon thus drew Jesus’ rebuke for his unrighteous judgment (Luke 7:36–50).

Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).

Harsh, unforgiving judgment is wrong. We are “always to be gentle toward everyone” (Titus 3:2). It is the merciful who will be shown mercy (Matthew 5:7), and, as Jesus warned, “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Matthew 7:2).

Self-righteous judgment is wrong. We are called to humility, and “God opposes the proud” (James 4:6). The Pharisee in Jesus’ parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector was confident in his own righteousness and from that proud position judged the publican; however, God sees the heart and refused to forgive the Pharisee’s sin (Luke 18:9–14).

Untrue judgment is wrong. The Bible clearly forbids bearing false witness (Proverbs 19:5). “Slander no one” (Titus 3:2).

Christians are often accused of “judging” or intolerance when they speak out against sin. But opposing sin is not wrong. Holding aloft the standard of righteousness naturally defines unrighteousness and draws the slings and arrows of those who choose sin over godliness. John the Baptist incurred the ire of Herodias when he spoke out against her adultery with Herod (Mark 6:18–19). She eventually silenced John, but she could not silence the truth (Isaiah 40:8).

Believers are warned against judging others unfairly or unrighteously, but Jesus commends “right judgment” (John 7:24, ESV). We are to be discerning (Colossians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:21). We are to preach the whole counsel of God, including the Bible’s teaching on sin (Acts 20:27; 2 Timothy 4:2). We are to gently confront erring brothers or sisters in Christ (Galatians 6:1). We are to practice church discipline (Matthew 18:15–17). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#44
Well.........I agree with the bolded, but his actions do speak and what the bible has to say about him speaks as well.....I will never be able to get over the following four words that are applied to Judas..

IS
THE
NOT ALL
I see what you mean, the main point I agre "worldly sorrow" is definitely not Godly repentance.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#45
do you believe the greek word for devil and the greek word for demon are the same?

they are not

there is one devil but many demons

you should know that many translations do not always translate some words as the original Greek intended and sadly that deters from what the script is actually saying

however, as Judas is called the son of perdition, it seems he is on level ground with the devil himself

study will confirm what I say here
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#46
Good Morning dcontroversal, I had a lovely week-end I hope you did also. Everything that I feel, say or reiterate concerning the Lord Jesus or his Father or Scripture is directly a result of the knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit of GOD that resides within me for without this I am blind and have no knowledge other than what mere man could teach me. I have no intention nor would I ever want to attempt to change anothers beliefs, if GOD has shown you a different aspect to his word; then his will be done.
I feel a persons job is to present themselves as examples of Jesus and let the light of GOD the Father shine from their eyes and words. I believe that when in an attempt to share the message that has given to you by the Holy Spirit you should be sure that the fruits of the Holy Spirit are visible within your teaching.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
People of GOD are known by these fruits.
If you cannot speak to me using these fruits of the Spirit, than I lovingly request that we discontinue talking. I thanked GOD on Friday for the wonderful gift of this site, so that I could share with my fellow man the message that the Spirit has given me.
When I look at the manner in which you present your views I find them harsh and unpleasant; when you call yourself a Christian "a disciple of Christ" you are representing Christ and what he taught. Your calling me "ignorant=lacking in knowledge" or telling me I have no understanding and suggesting that I translate words like be, is and the; this is not teaching from Christ and is not fruits of the Spirit of GOD. If you presented yourself in this manner to one who was not firm in their faith, your teaching manner and representation might in all likelihood "turn a person away from Christianity" I have been shown the "truth" I am sorry that yours and my "truth" differ. I will not look up the words be, is and the, I feel no desire to do so.
Please if you respond to any of my posts do so with the fruits of the Spirit or I will no longer respond. May the Holy Spirit of GOD be with you.

you're gonna get tired of hearing from me

having the Holy Spirit inside of us does not mean we can never err or make a mistake

that's all I'm going to say here apart from the fact you should know that so many people come here trying to preach and teach and REFUSE ALL CORRECTION and then point the finger at the person or persons trying to actually show them they are wrong. the interesting thing with fruit, it that is has a season in which it grows...the Holy Spirit is the cultivator and in the case of judging, we are NOT fruit inspectors. too many want to inspect the fruit of others and they come along and start picking it. NOT OUR JOB

don't be that person
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,259
431
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#47
My statement was "Judas was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box" as you know sin opens the door that lets Satan in. I feel Judas indeed was remorseful to the point of repentance as he could not even live with the sin he had committed.
Christ had yet died & resurrected to retire the Levitical sin sacrificial system. I find no place in scripture where Judas brought a sacrifice to the Temple to have his transgressions covered.

Also, I feel (your statement above) the following definition of perdition & scripture shared. Strongly suggest Judas self destruction will result in his eternal separation from our Great God & Savior.

KJV Dictionary Definition: PERDI'TION, n. L. perditio, from perdo, to lose, to ruin.

1. Entire loss or ruin; utter destruction; as the perdition of the Turkish fleet.
In this sense, the word is now nearly or wholly obsolete.

2. The utter loss of the soul or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death. The impenitent sinner is condemned to final perdition.

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(NOTE: Jesus is speaking in vs 12, calls Judas the son of perdition. Add this to the KJB dictionary #2 meaning)
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
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#48
How are those who lived before Christ's life and sacrifice brought to grace?
By believing God regarding His future promise of the Messiah setting things straight.
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#49
judge not etc does not mean you sit placidly by and let it rain without an umbrella on your head

are you Judas? did you sell Jesus for 30 pieces of silver? did you then kill yourself in regret?

you can't judge that?

to judge means to form an opinion AFTER the facts are in. we can judge Judas actions and we can believe what scripture states regarding who he was. this is what scripture states concerning him...

1. he is called the son of perdition (source)

The title “son of perdition” is used twice in the New Testament, first in John 17:12 and again in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The phrase simply means “man doomed to destruction” and is not reserved for any one individual. In fact, there are two people to which the title “son of perdition” is applied. In context, John 17:12 is referring to Judas Iscariot, while 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the “man of lawlessness”—the Antichrist—who will appear in the end times before Christ’s return.

A good picture of a person who is a “son of perdition” appears in Hebrews 6:4–8, which describes a person who, like Judas, has experienced a certain closeness to God and has a good understanding of salvation, but then denies it. Instead of bearing good fruit, he bears “thorns and thistles.” This is a person who sees the path to salvation, which is trusting in God’s grace to cover sin (Ephesians 2:8–9), and instead either flatly denies the existence of God or denies God’s gift of salvation, preferring to pay his own debt. Judas chose the second path, punishing himself by suicide instead of accepting grace.

2.
For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born. Mark 14:21

and here are another 30 verses about Judas and what Jesus has to say about him


as for judging, it does not mean never ever form an opinion or understand or avoid or DISCERN

to discern is a biblical concept and it means to see what is really going on (oversimplified explanation but a person can look it up and probably should in the dictionary and then in scripture to get the full understanding)

Question: "What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?" (source)

Answer: Jesus’ command not to judge others could be the most widely quoted of His sayings, even though it is almost invariably quoted in complete disregard of its context. Here is Jesus’ statement: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). Many people use this verse in an attempt to silence their critics, interpreting Jesus’ meaning as “You don’t have the right to tell me I’m wrong.” Taken in isolation, Jesus’ command “Do not judge” does indeed seem to preclude all negative assessments. However, there is much more to the passage than those three words.

The Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean we cannot show discernment. Immediately after Jesus says, “Do not judge,” He says, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs” (Matthew 7:6). A little later in the same sermon, He says, “Watch out for false prophets. . . . By their fruit you will recognize them” (verses 15–16). How are we to discern who are the “dogs” and “pigs” and “false prophets” unless we have the ability to make a judgment call on doctrines and deeds? Jesus is giving us permission to tell right from wrong.

Also, the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean all actions are equally moral or that truth is relative. The Bible clearly teaches that truth is objective, eternal, and inseparable from God’s character. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie—but, of course, to call something a “lie” is to pass judgment. To call adultery or murder a sin is likewise to pass judgment—but it’s also to agree with God. When Jesus said not to judge others, He did not mean that no one can identify sin for what it is, based on God’s definition of sin.

And the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean there should be no mechanism for dealing with sin. The Bible has a whole book entitled Judges. The judges in the Old Testament were raised up by God Himself (Judges 2:18). The modern judicial system, including its judges, is a necessary part of society. In saying, “Do not judge,” Jesus was not saying, “Anything goes.”

more in following post. I included ALL of it because so many people do not understand that we should judge...discern...and make the false assumption that we just turn away from wrong and do nothing about it and say 'oh I should not judge'

that is false. you should judge but using the following guidelines
You have nailed "son of perdition" thank-you a person who has known the Spirit and " which describes a person who, like Judas, has experienced a certain closeness to God and has a good understanding of salvation, but then denies it."

Take from scripture what The Spirit has shown you and go with GOD. The Holy Spirit has put it in me never to judge others and I will not go against what the Spirit has taight to me.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
627
93
#50
I do not believe that for one second.....he went to the priests and did not get right.....he died a lost man THE son of perdition and a devil from the beginning......worldly sorrow does not = godly repentance.......
Point well taken. Thank you for sharing your insight, brother.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#51
You have nailed "son of perdition" thank-you a person who has known the Spirit and " which describes a person who, like Judas, has experienced a certain closeness to God and has a good understanding of salvation, but then denies it."

Take from scripture what The Spirit has shown you and go with GOD. The Holy Spirit has put it in me never to judge others and I will not go against what the Spirit has taight to me.
so somehow God gives me instruction but something different to you?

well that explains all the different split offs from the original gospel. (sarcasm)

you know, study takes time. it may take days or even months and personal application can take years

why do you refuse what Jesus says about using right judgement?

the Holy Spirit is our Teacher but He does not go against the scriptures and certainly not against the very words of Christ

I will state that I have been impressed many times not to talk about people to others..that is gossip. however I can and will certainly pray about what I DISCERN. that, is biblical
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#54
It is entirely possible that since Christ unequivocally called him "a devil" (literally a demon) Judas was a demon who had taken the form of a man (or possessed this man). It would appear that "the Beast" (the Antichrist) will also be a demon who comes out of the Bottomless Pit. So when the Bible says that "he went to his own place" it could be that he was sent back to this Pit.
Jesus calls Judas a man:

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him.
But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man!
It would be better for him if he had not been born.
(Mark 14:21)

if we think Judas was not human because Christ says '
one of you is a devil!' in John 6:70, why don't we think Peter is Satan since Jesus directly calls him that in Matthew 16:23?

might we not say instead, that Christ was not talking to Peter in that instant, but to Satan - and that similarly He was not singularly talking about Judas when He said there is a devil among the 12, but about that literal demon that was in their midst? or even to say, that this is a figure of speech, just as we idiomatically call people angels or devils ourselves.
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#55
so somehow God gives me instruction but something different to you?

well that explains all the different split offs from the original gospel. (sarcasm)

you know, study takes time. it may take days or even months and personal application can take years

why do you refuse what Jesus says about using right judgement?

the Holy Spirit is our Teacher but He does not go against the scriptures and certainly not against the very words of Christ

I will state that I have been impressed many times not to talk about people to others..that is gossip. however I can and will certainly pray about what I DISCERN. that, is biblical
GOD wrote with his finger not to cause human death, then apparently instructed Moses to kill adulterers with stones. GOD is never inconsistant and would not contradict his own law which is why the Scribes and Pharisees thought they had Jesus over a barrel so to speak. The Holy Spirit directed Jesus on how to deal with this situation in a verbal sense not the scriptures. The Holy Spirit gave Peter powers beyond what I have seen in any of the people I have had the pleasure of talking to about GOD, even those who claim they have been blessed by such, so I do believe the Holy Spirit bestows different abilities and enlightenments on different people.
I'm sorry I don't do sacasm well so I don't know what you mean by split offs sorry. Discern to recognize or understand something that is not clear that is indeed a job for the Holy Spirit of GOD.
I have never read where Jesus tells us to judge others, most scriptures indicate quite the opposite, do we have different bibles, mines the english standard version.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#56
Good Morning dcontroversal, I had a lovely week-end I hope you did also. Everything that I feel, say or reiterate concerning the Lord Jesus or his Father or Scripture is directly a result of the knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit of GOD that resides within me for without this I am blind and have no knowledge other than what mere man could teach me. I have no intention nor would I ever want to attempt to change anothers beliefs, if GOD has shown you a different aspect to his word; then his will be done.
I feel a persons job is to present themselves as examples of Jesus and let the light of GOD the Father shine from their eyes and words. I believe that when in an attempt to share the message that has given to you by the Holy Spirit you should be sure that the fruits of the Holy Spirit are visible within your teaching.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
People of GOD are known by these fruits.
If you cannot speak to me using these fruits of the Spirit, than I lovingly request that we discontinue talking. I thanked GOD on Friday for the wonderful gift of this site, so that I could share with my fellow man the message that the Spirit has given me.
When I look at the manner in which you present your views I find them harsh and unpleasant; when you call yourself a Christian "a disciple of Christ" you are representing Christ and what he taught. Your calling me "ignorant=lacking in knowledge" or telling me I have no understanding and suggesting that I translate words like be, is and the; this is not teaching from Christ and is not fruits of the Spirit of GOD. If you presented yourself in this manner to one who was not firm in their faith, your teaching manner and representation might in all likelihood "turn a person away from Christianity" I have been shown the "truth" I am sorry that yours and my "truth" differ. I will not look up the words be, is and the, I feel no desire to do so.
Please if you respond to any of my posts do so with the fruits of the Spirit or I will no longer respond. May the Holy Spirit of GOD be with you.

Amen and well said Sister Pom! Peace and love!❤❤❤
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
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#57
What makes you think Judas did not have a chance to be forgiven? Anyone could walk up to the cross of Christ on that fateful day. Indeed His enemies stood around mocking Him. Therefore Judas could have walked up and asked for forgiveness (if he had a mind to).
in John 17 he is called the one destined for destruction so that scripture would be fulfilled.

i suppose it depends on how you define a 'chance' -- is it still a chance, if there is no reality ever in which he seizes that chance? everything is possible with God, but God exercises His own purposes, regardless of what we might call possibility. Christ's blood is certainly sufficient to atone for every sin of all mankind - but salvation is not universal, nonetheless.

possibility is one thing when we look forward in time, but when we look backward at time, there is only determinism: these things have occurred. what does it look like then, when you are wholly removed from time itself, eternal, and look at those things which are constrained in and exist within time?
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#58
you're gonna get tired of hearing from me

having the Holy Spirit inside of us does not mean we can never err or make a mistake

that's all I'm going to say here apart from the fact you should know that so many people come here trying to preach and teach and REFUSE ALL CORRECTION and then point the finger at the person or persons trying to actually show them they are wrong. the interesting thing with fruit, it that is has a season in which it grows...the Holy Spirit is the cultivator and in the case of judging, we are NOT fruit inspectors. too many want to inspect the fruit of others and they come along and start picking it. NOT OUR JOB

don't be that person
I will do my best, correction is how we learn, be it from our fellow man or from the Holy Spirit. Humans constantly err against GOD's Law (the 10) It is not possible in this world to avoid that. In many of the posts I have written since arriving here I have in manner hurt my fellow man and that in and of itself pains me; but we cannot sin against the Holy Spirit to turn your back against GOD once you know him is unforgivable.
I'm the one that is against judging others your so right that is not my job.
You mention in another post; study (I'm assuming you speak of the scriptures) takes a long time and indeed it does.
Question: who do you feel had more knowledge of GOD The Scribes and Pharisees who spent their lives studying the Holy Scriptures or the Apostles who had been simple fisherman or tax collectors but had been given The Holy Spirit of GOD?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#59
IMO Judas Iscariot’s suicide was repentance. If it were not so, he would have thoroughly enjoyed those 30 pieces of silver.
Satan had entered him at this point, too -- is it possible this is Satan realizing what Jesus intends, that is, Satan, having entered Judas, when he sees that Christ has willingly allowed Himself to be arrested, even after displaying that by simply speaking He can knock down and immobilize an entire company of armed men, Satan understands that he has played right into Jesus's intentions, rather than thwarting them, and that he - Satan-Judas - throws the silver in a disgusted effort at undoing what he had begun?

because this isn't only Judas we're looking at now, but the Devil, too. unless Satan had left him then? if so when?
if it is also Satan, then Satan has just been knocked flat by Christ in the garden saying I AM. how much of this is what Satan expected to happen? how much does Satan understand who Jesus really is?
Satan is not ignorant of scripture. he surely knows that he is fulfilling Zechariah's prophecy ((ch.11)) -- but is he doing so unwillingly? can he stop himself once it's set in motion? does he forget while it's happening, and then realize immediately afterward? -- like Peter denying Christ before the rooster crowed. what does 'free will' even mean in the case of something like that? Peter surely thought he was acting freely - but then when he heard the rooster, he understood what he had done had been foretold.

these are very difficult things to comprehend!
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#60
Free Will discussion, #390674938167342890368296513904564895294715765
Literally