Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.[/quote]
The command which the jews thought was meant to bring life, actually brought death.
The penalty of sin is death, So when the penalty of that sin killed me.
The law is holy and just and good. Those who sin get what they deserve, because the command is just and holy and good.
The law only gives life to those who fulfill it. What does it take to fulfill the law?
The command which the jews thought was meant to bring life, actually brought death.
The penalty of sin is death, So when the penalty of that sin killed me.
The law is holy and just and good. Those who sin get what they deserve, because the command is just and holy and good.
The law only gives life to those who fulfill it. What does it take to fulfill the law?
John 6 summary
1. Feeding the 5 thousand
2. Disciples terrified in the storm, need to trust Jesus
3. Jesus says "work for food that leads to eternal life"
4. Jesus is the bread of life, he supplies so no hunger or thirst.
5. Cost of being a disciple, drink His blood, eat His flesh
6. The betrayer mentioned but not identified
53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
John 6
Imagine this, you believe Jesus but do not eat His flesh or drink His blood, you have no life in you.
Simple generalisations do not answer complex propositions.
1. Feeding the 5 thousand
2. Disciples terrified in the storm, need to trust Jesus
3. Jesus says "work for food that leads to eternal life"
4. Jesus is the bread of life, he supplies so no hunger or thirst.
5. Cost of being a disciple, drink His blood, eat His flesh
6. The betrayer mentioned but not identified
53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
John 6
Imagine this, you believe Jesus but do not eat His flesh or drink His blood, you have no life in you.
Simple generalisations do not answer complex propositions.
I think I was last reading this thread at a couple of pages ago 
... forgive me if someone has covered this topic in the meantime... but in the past I've found the following quoted portion to be helpful, re: Rom7 and Paul's struggle, so thought I'd post it here (I think Rom7 was being discussed last I looked at this thread):
[quoting Wm R Newell's Commentary on Rom7]
So then, I myself with the mind, indeed, serve God's Law; but with the flesh sin's law.
Before beginning the study of this great struggle of Paul's, let us get it settled firmly in our minds that Paul is here exercised not at all about pardon, but about deliverance: “Who shall deliver me from this body of death?” The whole question is concerning indwelling sin, as a power; and not committed sins, as a danger.
Mark also that while (as we shall show) the indwelling Holy Spirit is the Christian's sole power against the flesh, He is not known in this struggle; but it is Paul himself against the flesh--with the Law prescribing a holy walk, but furnishing no power whatever for it.
Even the fact of deliverance through Christ from the Law (described in the fourth and sixth verses), is most evidently not known during this conflict with the flesh, (This fact itself marks the conflict as one that preceded the revelation to the apostle of his being dead to the Law, not under law: for such knowledge would have made the struggle impossible.)
Therefore this conflict of Paul's, instead of being an example to you, is a warning to you to keep out of it by means of God's plain words that you are not under law but under grace.
But now you will adopt one of two courses: either you will read of and avoid the great struggle Paul had, under law, to make the flesh obedient by law,--with its consequent discovery of no good in him, and no strength; with his despairing cry, “Who shall deliver me?” and the blessed discovery of deliverance through our Lord Jesus Christ and by the indwelling Spirit: and this is, of course, the true way,--for you are not under law. It is the God-honoring path, for it is the way of faith. It is the wisest, because in it you profit by the struggle and testimony of another, written out for your benefit.
The second course, (and alas, the one followed by most in their distress and longing after a holy life), is to go through practically the same struggle as Paul had,--until you discover for yourself experimentally what he found. In this latter course you will be like Bunyan's pilgrim who fell into the Slough of Despond. [then he quotes from Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan]
And, if we can learn from Paul's struggle in this Seventh Chapter, the lessons Paul seeks to teach us--of the fact that we cannot be what we would, because of the inveterate, incurable evil of our flesh--of “the sin that dwelleth in us,” and that deliverance is “through Christ Jesus our Lord,”--through faith in Him, as having become identified with us as we were, and having thus effected our death, with Him, to sin, and all the “I must” claims of our old standing: so that we count ourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God in Christ Jesus,--it will be well! We shall be blessed!
But if we refuse to learn the lessons Paul would teach us here--of the great facts of our deliverance in Christ from “the power of sin which is the Law” (1 Corinthians 15:56), we shall not only fail of personal deliverance from sin's power, but we shall soon be traducing all the glorious doctrines of Paul, and be sinking to the doctrine that we must expect to go on sinning and getting forgiveness “till we die,”--which is, of course, putting our own death in the place of Christ's death: for God says we died with Him, and are now free in Him Risen!
--William R Newell, Commentary on Romans 7 [source: BibleHub]
[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracket insert mine, parentheses original]
... forgive me if someone has covered this topic in the meantime... but in the past I've found the following quoted portion to be helpful, re: Rom7 and Paul's struggle, so thought I'd post it here (I think Rom7 was being discussed last I looked at this thread):[quoting Wm R Newell's Commentary on Rom7]
So then, I myself with the mind, indeed, serve God's Law; but with the flesh sin's law.
Before beginning the study of this great struggle of Paul's, let us get it settled firmly in our minds that Paul is here exercised not at all about pardon, but about deliverance: “Who shall deliver me from this body of death?” The whole question is concerning indwelling sin, as a power; and not committed sins, as a danger.
Mark also that while (as we shall show) the indwelling Holy Spirit is the Christian's sole power against the flesh, He is not known in this struggle; but it is Paul himself against the flesh--with the Law prescribing a holy walk, but furnishing no power whatever for it.
Even the fact of deliverance through Christ from the Law (described in the fourth and sixth verses), is most evidently not known during this conflict with the flesh, (This fact itself marks the conflict as one that preceded the revelation to the apostle of his being dead to the Law, not under law: for such knowledge would have made the struggle impossible.)
Therefore this conflict of Paul's, instead of being an example to you, is a warning to you to keep out of it by means of God's plain words that you are not under law but under grace.
But now you will adopt one of two courses: either you will read of and avoid the great struggle Paul had, under law, to make the flesh obedient by law,--with its consequent discovery of no good in him, and no strength; with his despairing cry, “Who shall deliver me?” and the blessed discovery of deliverance through our Lord Jesus Christ and by the indwelling Spirit: and this is, of course, the true way,--for you are not under law. It is the God-honoring path, for it is the way of faith. It is the wisest, because in it you profit by the struggle and testimony of another, written out for your benefit.
The second course, (and alas, the one followed by most in their distress and longing after a holy life), is to go through practically the same struggle as Paul had,--until you discover for yourself experimentally what he found. In this latter course you will be like Bunyan's pilgrim who fell into the Slough of Despond. [then he quotes from Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan]
And, if we can learn from Paul's struggle in this Seventh Chapter, the lessons Paul seeks to teach us--of the fact that we cannot be what we would, because of the inveterate, incurable evil of our flesh--of “the sin that dwelleth in us,” and that deliverance is “through Christ Jesus our Lord,”--through faith in Him, as having become identified with us as we were, and having thus effected our death, with Him, to sin, and all the “I must” claims of our old standing: so that we count ourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God in Christ Jesus,--it will be well! We shall be blessed!
But if we refuse to learn the lessons Paul would teach us here--of the great facts of our deliverance in Christ from “the power of sin which is the Law” (1 Corinthians 15:56), we shall not only fail of personal deliverance from sin's power, but we shall soon be traducing all the glorious doctrines of Paul, and be sinking to the doctrine that we must expect to go on sinning and getting forgiveness “till we die,”--which is, of course, putting our own death in the place of Christ's death: for God says we died with Him, and are now free in Him Risen!
--William R Newell, Commentary on Romans 7 [source: BibleHub]
[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracket insert mine, parentheses original]
The argument is overly simplistic.
The law is not to run a nation but just to condemn men as sinners, which Jesus forgives.
So reduce the whole 1,400 year of Israel into 1 day, and that is the message.
And Jesus does not judge or condemn evil behaviour, He just covers it up before the Father.
It is the super curtain magic trick. But the term washed is used constantly by the apostles.
They were washed white as snow, not covered up and it appeared they were clean but were
still sinful.
The problem is guilt. Believers whose consciences have not been cleansed feel they are
still sinners. The problem is simply they have not truly repented and accepted Jesus has
forgiven them, they believe this is impossible, literally.
The law is not to run a nation but just to condemn men as sinners, which Jesus forgives.
So reduce the whole 1,400 year of Israel into 1 day, and that is the message.
And Jesus does not judge or condemn evil behaviour, He just covers it up before the Father.
It is the super curtain magic trick. But the term washed is used constantly by the apostles.
They were washed white as snow, not covered up and it appeared they were clean but were
still sinful.
The problem is guilt. Believers whose consciences have not been cleansed feel they are
still sinners. The problem is simply they have not truly repented and accepted Jesus has
forgiven them, they believe this is impossible, literally.
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How do we know we have been cleansed and purified?
The cross of Jesus and His love in our hearts.
John said because we obey Jesus's commands we know we are in Him.
Now this is a very hard statement. It takes a long time to see its true fulfilment.
Instant believism in any form is miss leading.
And this is the constant error. However we start out, maturity or perfection is only
attained at the end. The debate has always been how and when.
Pauls answer is "I press on" "I strive for that"
It is in this desire and movement we are changed. And we do not see it ourselves
but others do. Words spoken with knowledge and understanding, a comfort here,
a kind word there, encouragement that lifts the soul, Praise that brings glory to
the Name of Jesus, humbleness at sorrow and trouble, empathy on loss and mourning,
mercy on mistakes and rash decisions.
You cannot ever see for yourself, your heart just starts to pour out the will of God
through the love of Christ, Amen.
The cross of Jesus and His love in our hearts.
John said because we obey Jesus's commands we know we are in Him.
Now this is a very hard statement. It takes a long time to see its true fulfilment.
Instant believism in any form is miss leading.
And this is the constant error. However we start out, maturity or perfection is only
attained at the end. The debate has always been how and when.
Pauls answer is "I press on" "I strive for that"
It is in this desire and movement we are changed. And we do not see it ourselves
but others do. Words spoken with knowledge and understanding, a comfort here,
a kind word there, encouragement that lifts the soul, Praise that brings glory to
the Name of Jesus, humbleness at sorrow and trouble, empathy on loss and mourning,
mercy on mistakes and rash decisions.
You cannot ever see for yourself, your heart just starts to pour out the will of God
through the love of Christ, Amen.
Talking to some is quite difficult, because their assumptions about morality are quite different
to ours.
Abraham was before the law of Moses. So keeping Gods commandments are not declared to us.
God declared he did and this was pleasing in Gods sight.
So some groups then project on lying, fearing, unbelief, etc to these genesis characters to put them as
failures before God, when nothing in the text does this. Clearly a lot of grace is involved and slow
revelation. For Abraham the offering of his son is the model of Christ being offered for our sin
on the cross. It is the highlight of Abrahams life, the child of promise given up at the command of God.
Truly the faith of Abraham made him righteous. God bless you
to ours.
Abraham was before the law of Moses. So keeping Gods commandments are not declared to us.
God declared he did and this was pleasing in Gods sight.
So some groups then project on lying, fearing, unbelief, etc to these genesis characters to put them as
failures before God, when nothing in the text does this. Clearly a lot of grace is involved and slow
revelation. For Abraham the offering of his son is the model of Christ being offered for our sin
on the cross. It is the highlight of Abrahams life, the child of promise given up at the command of God.
Truly the faith of Abraham made him righteous. God bless you
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I find it amazing at some who think eternal life as compared to conditional life is just that, ETERNAL
In john 6, Jesus said this would be given to those who partake of the food which endures to eternal life
1. They will no longer hunger
2. They will no longer thirst
3. They will live forever
4. They will never die
5. They HAVE eternal life
6. They will be risen on the last day
7. They will live as long as Christ lives, (as long as he lived.... Since Christ will never die, neither will wel. We can’t
This is in direct comparison to those who ate manna, Who ate every day, Yet still died..
Its bad enough the catholic and some orthodox churches take this to mean communion (the literal flesh of jesus eaten the time at the eucharistic tradition) but we have those who think this food much continually be eaten, it not. That we can still die. Thats not what this passage states..
Physical food. You must continually eat. Failure to do so will cause your body to break down, and do without long enough you will die.
Spiritual food. (The food which Jesus said he gives us, the food which is spirit and is life) is food whihc one can eat, And ONCE they have eaten this food to the point it has given us life, it will continue to feed us forever. It never loses its life given properties. Its power will NEVER RUN OUT.
Peter understood it (you have the words of eternal life, WHy is it so many people who claim to be christ can not understand it?
In john 6, Jesus said this would be given to those who partake of the food which endures to eternal life
1. They will no longer hunger
2. They will no longer thirst
3. They will live forever
4. They will never die
5. They HAVE eternal life
6. They will be risen on the last day
7. They will live as long as Christ lives, (as long as he lived.... Since Christ will never die, neither will wel. We can’t
This is in direct comparison to those who ate manna, Who ate every day, Yet still died..
Its bad enough the catholic and some orthodox churches take this to mean communion (the literal flesh of jesus eaten the time at the eucharistic tradition) but we have those who think this food much continually be eaten, it not. That we can still die. Thats not what this passage states..
Physical food. You must continually eat. Failure to do so will cause your body to break down, and do without long enough you will die.
Spiritual food. (The food which Jesus said he gives us, the food which is spirit and is life) is food whihc one can eat, And ONCE they have eaten this food to the point it has given us life, it will continue to feed us forever. It never loses its life given properties. Its power will NEVER RUN OUT.
Peter understood it (you have the words of eternal life, WHy is it so many people who claim to be christ can not understand it?
Right, eg (Post #3891)... "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (in Christ Jesus).
"And if the Spirit of the One having raised up Jesus out from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised up Christ Jesus out from the dead also will give life ['"quicken," vivify ("animate"); (figuratively) cause what is dead (inoperative) to have life; empower with divine life'] to your mortal bodies [the ones we still live in, in the here and now!], by means of His Spirit dwelling in you." Romans 8:11
[now, quoting from a Commentary on Hebrews 3...]
"As Christendom has largely fallen back from [the] faith into a resumption of these rudiments of the world, which the work and glory of Christ now condemn as weak and "beggarly elements" (Gal. 4). there is like danger of unbelief. It is in truth departure from a living God for forms which He used to do service before Christ came and died atoningly, when redemption from under the law was effected, and the believer passed from bond-service into the status of a son and heir of God, receiving the Spirit of adoption so as to cry Abba, Father. Anything short of this is not Christian relationship; and it is in evident contrast with Jewish subjection to ordinances, to which the Catholic bodies (not Romanist only) have turned back again. It is a deceptive form of unbelief, a going away from the living God to dead forms, because the heart lacks confidence in His grace in Christ.
"So it was with Israel; so it is with Christendom."
--William Kelly
[end quoting; underline and bracketed insert mine, parenthesis original]
"And if the Spirit of the One having raised up Jesus out from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised up Christ Jesus out from the dead also will give life ['"quicken," vivify ("animate"); (figuratively) cause what is dead (inoperative) to have life; empower with divine life'] to your mortal bodies [the ones we still live in, in the here and now!], by means of His Spirit dwelling in you." Romans 8:11
[now, quoting from a Commentary on Hebrews 3...]
"As Christendom has largely fallen back from [the] faith into a resumption of these rudiments of the world, which the work and glory of Christ now condemn as weak and "beggarly elements" (Gal. 4). there is like danger of unbelief. It is in truth departure from a living God for forms which He used to do service before Christ came and died atoningly, when redemption from under the law was effected, and the believer passed from bond-service into the status of a son and heir of God, receiving the Spirit of adoption so as to cry Abba, Father. Anything short of this is not Christian relationship; and it is in evident contrast with Jewish subjection to ordinances, to which the Catholic bodies (not Romanist only) have turned back again. It is a deceptive form of unbelief, a going away from the living God to dead forms, because the heart lacks confidence in His grace in Christ.
"So it was with Israel; so it is with Christendom."
--William Kelly
[end quoting; underline and bracketed insert mine, parenthesis original]
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I think there are about 3 groups, and in one form or another, every christian denomination of belief system falls into these three groups.
1. A group that think ultimately our work is what saves us
2. A group that thinks that the only reason they are saved today is their acceptance and trust in the work of Christ.
3. A group that thinks they are ok, they said some sinners prayer. So they are saved and can continue to live in like the world. Because it does not matter
These groups have names
1. Legalisitic/modern day pharisees
2. Grace
3. Licentious
1. A group that think ultimately our work is what saves us
2. A group that thinks that the only reason they are saved today is their acceptance and trust in the work of Christ.
3. A group that thinks they are ok, they said some sinners prayer. So they are saved and can continue to live in like the world. Because it does not matter
These groups have names
1. Legalisitic/modern day pharisees
2. Grace
3. Licentious
You know, I came to recognize how just and good God was from an early age 4-7, but it was later around 11-13 that I began to recognize I was not truly in sync/compliance with Gods Laws and what it meant. The relationship my dad had/has with God and the Love my dad had/has for God fostered a deep level of admiration/respect for God in me. Once I saw/understood my contempt for some of Gods laws, I truly felt horrible; one - for betraying my respect of God and two - for the penalty of eternal separation from Him. The eternal Life aspect was not nearly in the forefront at that age, mostly relationship. My experience was not so much fear of penalty as it was the shame of betrayal and the looming loss of relationship. I know it was The Heavenly Father bringing me to the place of Godly Sorrow, a gift, then giving me the gift/desire to repent which brought me to the gift of reconciliation, Christs blood, shed for the forgiveness of my sins should I choose to accept, which was not a hard choice. The rest was tears and gratefulness! Reading scripture and learning and unlearning. Sometimes unlearning what Church doctrine taught!
Is this what you were getting at?
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I think I like digging Sweet Taters better than Irish Taters! And I like diggin Irish Taters better than most things!
Diggin taters is kinda like what I think heaven will be like, not sure exactly what is there and always brings more smiles and thankfulness than you could imagine even though you do it year after year it's literally always a JOY!
Hard to explain.. Awesome to experience!
Diggin taters is kinda like what I think heaven will be like, not sure exactly what is there and always brings more smiles and thankfulness than you could imagine even though you do it year after year it's literally always a JOY!
Hard to explain..
Awesome to experience!-
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