The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?
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Daniel 7:20 - prophesies the Roman Republic turning into the Roman Empire.
Daniel 7:21 - "until the Ancient of Days came" prophesies the 1st coming of Christ which happened in 1st Century AD.
Daniel 7:24-25 - prophesies Julius Caesar who changed the law (Constitution) and the times (the Calendar), and paved the way for the roman republic to turn into the Roman empire. The end of verse 25 then makes a jump. The 3.5 yr period refers to a 1260 year period that the roman (byzantine) empire reigned.
Daniel 7:26-27 - These last two verses give a vague glimpse of what is to transpire from the time of the 4th beast (which is the Roman Republic turned Roman Empire) all the way until the very END.
Rev 13:5 - This 42 months is the same 3.5 yr period in Daniel 7:25 which is the same 1260 years that the roman (byzantine) empire reigned.
Rev 13:6 and onward - expounds upon the vague glimpse that is given in Daniel 7:26-27
Conclusion: It is all tribulation.
Daniel 7:21 - "until the Ancient of Days came" prophesies the 1st coming of Christ which happened in 1st Century AD.
Daniel 7:24-25 - prophesies Julius Caesar who changed the law (Constitution) and the times (the Calendar), and paved the way for the roman republic to turn into the Roman empire. The end of verse 25 then makes a jump. The 3.5 yr period refers to a 1260 year period that the roman (byzantine) empire reigned.
Daniel 7:26-27 - These last two verses give a vague glimpse of what is to transpire from the time of the 4th beast (which is the Roman Republic turned Roman Empire) all the way until the very END.
Rev 13:5 - This 42 months is the same 3.5 yr period in Daniel 7:25 which is the same 1260 years that the roman (byzantine) empire reigned.
Rev 13:6 and onward - expounds upon the vague glimpse that is given in Daniel 7:26-27
Conclusion: It is all tribulation.
There are three places in the Bible where the words 'great tribulation' are found:
Matthew 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Revelation 2:
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 7:
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
None of them have the word 'the' in front of those words (in the English; the original Greek may be consulted to get the full meaning in each case).
WE call it [the] 'Great Tribulation' to clarify that we are referring to the span of time within which "great tribulation" (as Jesus defines it in Matthew 24) takes place - because we believe it to be "contained" within a particular specific period of time (from beginning to end).
It is for our understanding in communication; the Bible does not refer to it in this specific manner.
It is WE that give it 'event'-level definition.
(This is important. Remember it.)
Matthew 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Revelation 2:
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 7:
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
None of them have the word 'the' in front of those words (in the English; the original Greek may be consulted to get the full meaning in each case).
WE call it [the] 'Great Tribulation' to clarify that we are referring to the span of time within which "great tribulation" (as Jesus defines it in Matthew 24) takes place - because we believe it to be "contained" within a particular specific period of time (from beginning to end).
It is for our understanding in communication; the Bible does not refer to it in this specific manner.
It is WE that give it 'event'-level definition.
(This is important. Remember it.)
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Jesus foretells destruction of Jerusalem
Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (1st Roman-Jewish War 66 -73AD), then know that its desolation has come near. (Note: this is the desolation that Daniel prophesied)
Luke 21:22
for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. (Note: This is the fulfillment of prophesies in Daniel about the end of sacrifices and the desolation of Jerusalem...)
Luke 21:23
For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.
Note: great distress - which is synonymous with great tribulation - happened upon the earth.
In Summary:
"The Great Tribulation" was a period of roughly 7 years that was the 1st Roman-Jewish War.
According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem and 100,000 in Galilee; 97,000 enslaved.[1] (wikipedia first roman-jewish war).
So perhaps in Revelation 7 the 144,000 that came out of the great tribulation came from the 1 million plus Jews (representing the 12 tribes) who died in the first Roman-Jewish War.
However, tribulation will be for everyone on earth from 1st Century AD to present day to the very END.
Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (1st Roman-Jewish War 66 -73AD), then know that its desolation has come near. (Note: this is the desolation that Daniel prophesied)
Luke 21:22
for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. (Note: This is the fulfillment of prophesies in Daniel about the end of sacrifices and the desolation of Jerusalem...)
Luke 21:23
For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.
Note: great distress - which is synonymous with great tribulation - happened upon the earth.
In Summary:
"The Great Tribulation" was a period of roughly 7 years that was the 1st Roman-Jewish War.
According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem and 100,000 in Galilee; 97,000 enslaved.[1] (wikipedia first roman-jewish war).
So perhaps in Revelation 7 the 144,000 that came out of the great tribulation came from the 1 million plus Jews (representing the 12 tribes) who died in the first Roman-Jewish War.
However, tribulation will be for everyone on earth from 1st Century AD to present day to the very END.
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Please note that the two phrases in blue in the first verse go together. (i.e. - they are referring to the same 'event'. And, the other two phrases in blue are also referring to the same 'event'.)
Please note that "our gathering together unto him" occurs at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" - also referred to as "the day of Christ" in verse 2.
The 'falling away' - and the revealing of the man of sin - comes before the 'day' referred to by the phrases in blue.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Please note that the two phrases in blue in the first verse go together. (i.e. - they are referring to the same 'event'. And, the other two phrases in blue are also referring to the same 'event'.)
Please note that "our gathering together unto him" occurs at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" - also referred to as "the day of Christ" in verse 2.
The 'falling away' - and the revealing of the man of sin - comes before the 'day' referred to by the phrases in blue.
1) You are in error
2) the fullness of understanding of end-time events was not known until John penned Revelation
3) any and all fixation on 70AD is complete rubbish
4) failure to understand end-time prophecy should be of deep concern to any Christian
5) It seems likely that the Church (including Paul) did NOT understand end-time prophecy in its FULLNESS until John penned Revelation
2) the fullness of understanding of end-time events was not known until John penned Revelation
3) any and all fixation on 70AD is complete rubbish
4) failure to understand end-time prophecy should be of deep concern to any Christian
5) It seems likely that the Church (including Paul) did NOT understand end-time prophecy in its FULLNESS until John penned Revelation
I've studied plenty, likely far more than yourself.
What I don't do is try to use the Bible as a divination tool.
When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
What's strange is that the moment we are saved we have come into the land the Lord our God has given us..
yet.. there are all manner of people doing these practices, and trying to use the Bible to do them..
Thing is, the Bible clearly reveals what it is talking about, and we can see the fulfillment of the prophecies, many prior to Christ's death, and we see everything played clearly out in early church history. and still playing out today..
We wait only upon very little and the seekers of signs will find themselves caught unawares, just as the Bible says.
What I don't do is try to use the Bible as a divination tool.
When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
What's strange is that the moment we are saved we have come into the land the Lord our God has given us..
yet.. there are all manner of people doing these practices, and trying to use the Bible to do them..
Thing is, the Bible clearly reveals what it is talking about, and we can see the fulfillment of the prophecies, many prior to Christ's death, and we see everything played clearly out in early church history. and still playing out today..
We wait only upon very little and the seekers of signs will find themselves caught unawares, just as the Bible says.
He needs them to NOT be 2 individuals.
Doctrines outside no brainers have a definate smell.
Fools paradise. One falsehood that gets illuminated automatically by scripture REQUIRES cunning "prybars" to keep it alive.
It ends up with every puzzle piece needing a hammer to keep the puzzle alive.
Then you tell them "uh,no,it was SUPPOSE to look like the picture on the box"
Doctrines outside no brainers have a definate smell.
Fools paradise. One falsehood that gets illuminated automatically by scripture REQUIRES cunning "prybars" to keep it alive.
It ends up with every puzzle piece needing a hammer to keep the puzzle alive.
Then you tell them "uh,no,it was SUPPOSE to look like the picture on the box"
It is important to note that Daniel 7:24-25 does not exclusively point to any one single person.
For example Pope Gregory also changed the law (putting into practice the recommendations of the Council of Trent) and changed the times (The Gregorian Calendar).
Daniel 7:24-25 points to there becoming a man of lawlessness. The man of lawlessness is not one man. It is a position that is held by many men. Just as there was not just one prophet. prophet was a position held by many men. Daniel gives us our first insights into the man of lawlessness.
The man of lawlessness began with the throne of the Roman Empire, continued with the throne of the Byzantine ( aka Eastern Roman) Empire, and then transitioned over to the throne of the Pope.
For example Pope Gregory also changed the law (putting into practice the recommendations of the Council of Trent) and changed the times (The Gregorian Calendar).
Daniel 7:24-25 points to there becoming a man of lawlessness. The man of lawlessness is not one man. It is a position that is held by many men. Just as there was not just one prophet. prophet was a position held by many men. Daniel gives us our first insights into the man of lawlessness.
The man of lawlessness began with the throne of the Roman Empire, continued with the throne of the Byzantine ( aka Eastern Roman) Empire, and then transitioned over to the throne of the Pope.
I must admit I had to "chuckle" at all the post that followed this post #1 with a thousand different opinions from y'all. For example, it started at 70AD, or it started when Jesus said on the cross "It is finished." And someone said it stared in 1949.
So, let me make this suggestion? Please, take your time and read 1 Thessalonians (the whole book and it is short) and pay close attention to the words used in their context. Put yourself in the Apostle Paul's place and just read it slowly and prayerfully and "hopefully" you will see a pattern.
For instance, I noticed that it is all about the Lord Jesus Christ coming to us. Look at 1 Thess 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He rasised from the deat, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Question? What kind of "wrath" is Paul talking about? Look at chapter 2 vs16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."
And at vs19, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? It is not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Chapter 3. vs3, "so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know THAT WE HAVE BEEN DESTINED FOR THIS." Vs7, for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and AFFLICTION we were comforted about you through faith."
The last verse of chapter 3. "so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS." Chapter 4:13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep/died, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. Vs14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God WILL BRING WITH HIM, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
Vs16, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Vs17, Then we who are alive and and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."
Question? Keep in mind this happens in a millesecond and it says we shall always be with the Lord. Do we go back to heaven or do we end up on earth? Now for Chapter 5. Paul explains don't worry about the times and epochs because it will come like a thief in the night. At vs4 he says we are not in darkness etc.
Vs5, We are children of light. Then we get to vs9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." I believe the "wrath" being discussed here is the wrath that unbelievers will face because they are not saved. I do not believe it has anything to do with the wrath God pours out during the tribulation.
And if you read the rest of Chapter 5 you see Paul is encouraging them to build each other up and esteem others better than yourself. You can read the rest of the chapter yourselves. Anyway, this is my take on 1 Thessalonians and notice again, it is the Lord coming for us and I don't see any so-called rapture of Him coming for us and we return for the Lambs supper. Plus, I just remembered Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." One coming again and only one resurrection.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So, let me make this suggestion? Please, take your time and read 1 Thessalonians (the whole book and it is short) and pay close attention to the words used in their context. Put yourself in the Apostle Paul's place and just read it slowly and prayerfully and "hopefully" you will see a pattern.
For instance, I noticed that it is all about the Lord Jesus Christ coming to us. Look at 1 Thess 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He rasised from the deat, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Question? What kind of "wrath" is Paul talking about? Look at chapter 2 vs16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."
And at vs19, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? It is not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Chapter 3. vs3, "so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know THAT WE HAVE BEEN DESTINED FOR THIS." Vs7, for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and AFFLICTION we were comforted about you through faith."
The last verse of chapter 3. "so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS." Chapter 4:13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep/died, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. Vs14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God WILL BRING WITH HIM, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
Vs16, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Vs17, Then we who are alive and and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."
Question? Keep in mind this happens in a millesecond and it says we shall always be with the Lord. Do we go back to heaven or do we end up on earth? Now for Chapter 5. Paul explains don't worry about the times and epochs because it will come like a thief in the night. At vs4 he says we are not in darkness etc.
Vs5, We are children of light. Then we get to vs9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." I believe the "wrath" being discussed here is the wrath that unbelievers will face because they are not saved. I do not believe it has anything to do with the wrath God pours out during the tribulation.
And if you read the rest of Chapter 5 you see Paul is encouraging them to build each other up and esteem others better than yourself. You can read the rest of the chapter yourselves. Anyway, this is my take on 1 Thessalonians and notice again, it is the Lord coming for us and I don't see any so-called rapture of Him coming for us and we return for the Lambs supper. Plus, I just remembered Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." One coming again and only one resurrection.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You failed to factor in the pretrib rapture verses.
Why would you do that?
Very simple, I do not consider the verses to be pre-trib verses based on my study of the Bible for over 57 years. To be sure I use to believe in the pre-trib rapture and had an open mind to examine the evidence and I just don't buy it. I also have a question for you. Can you name any of the early Church Fathers that promoted the pre-trib view in any of their writings? And as a side note you said this?
"You failed to factor in the pretrib rapture verses.
Why would you do that?" This would be what is known in logic as an argument from silence, at least for me. What do I mean? It's like if anyone was to say, "Show me one verse in the book of Acts where anyone said that Jesus Christ is God." Just because it may not specifically found in the book of Acts does not mean Jesus is God, He is identifed as God in other books.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"You failed to factor in the pretrib rapture verses.
Why would you do that?" This would be what is known in logic as an argument from silence, at least for me. What do I mean? It's like if anyone was to say, "Show me one verse in the book of Acts where anyone said that Jesus Christ is God." Just because it may not specifically found in the book of Acts does not mean Jesus is God, He is identifed as God in other books.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Very simple, I do not consider the verses to be pre-trib verses based on my study of the Bible for over 57 years. To be sure I use to believe in the pre-trib rapture and had an open mind to examine the evidence and I just don't buy it. I also have a question for you. Can you name any of the early Church Fathers that promoted the pre-trib view in any of their writings? And as a side note you said this?
"You failed to factor in the pretrib rapture verses.
Why would you do that?" This would be what is known in logic as an argument from silence, at least for me. What do I mean? It's like if anyone was to say, "Show me one verse in the book of Acts where anyone said that Jesus Christ is God." Just because it may not specifically found in the book of Acts does not mean Jesus is God, He is identifed as God in other books.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"You failed to factor in the pretrib rapture verses.
Why would you do that?" This would be what is known in logic as an argument from silence, at least for me. What do I mean? It's like if anyone was to say, "Show me one verse in the book of Acts where anyone said that Jesus Christ is God." Just because it may not specifically found in the book of Acts does not mean Jesus is God, He is identifed as God in other books.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Only Israelites are witnessing post Rapture. The Church has vacated the earth end of Chapter 3. Read Rev ch 4:1. Kicks off the post-rapture period of the final 7 years.
Cant be more obvious.