Cherubins

[Scribe]

There is a message intended in these two. "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy-seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. " Paul had an understanding but was not ready to share it with those that were to receive the letter to the Hebrews. Maybe because they were not ready for it. However, if you have ears to hear it then consider the answer is in the phrase "cherubims of glory." The glory of God (often called the Shekinah, by the Jewish writers, though not in the bible) manifest in a cloud that appeared over the mercy seat and therefore between these images. They are shadows or types of the heavenly and we get more insight by reading Isaiah 6 where he sees the throne of God and the heavenly creatures singing Holy, Holy, Holy. They represent the Holiness of God that no man can approach unto until after the Cross and resurrection. Since Jesus has gone before us with his own blood he has made a way for us to enter into the very presence of God which we have not yet done physically but we are promised to be able to do so in the future. So when you see the similarly described creatures in Rev 4 singing Holy Holy Holy it is to remind you of Is 6 but as you read further in Rev 5 you see these creatures singing the following lyrics "You have redeemed us by they blood out of every tribe, nation, tongue, etc and we shall reign as kings and priests on the earth." They tell us that they are redeemed people and not cherubim even though they appear to John in similar appearance as the cherubim in Is 6 the message being that we will inherit that proximity to the very glorious throne of God that was once the place of these glory cherubims. Hallelujah! I can't wait.

 

[dcontroversal]

Your thoughts: The cherubs above the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant who are these creatures and why was God so specific that when finished the faces of these creatures should always be toward the mercy seat?
Ref: Ex: chapter 25,26,36 and 37.

To fully grasp the truth of why, one must ponder what the ark contained....it contained the (two stone tablets of the covenant "LAW") which deemed men guilty, it also contained a golden pot manna, and Aaron's budded rod...
ALL three were found under the Old Covenant and were representative of the covenant itself which demanded 100% perfect obedience for blessing....

a. The LAW <----Man had to maintain to be blessed (many O.T. scripture proved this" and to disobey brought death, guilt and punishment
b. The Manna equated to God's provision found within the obedience mandated by the O.T. for blessing
c. The rod equated to the Priestly duties of the Levitical priesthood found under the law and how the offering for sin maintained right and fellowship under the law (NOTE, the Priest would have to offer blood not only for himself, but also the people) and it was DEADLY serious.

Now the Cherub and the Glory of GOD.......WHEN the HIGH PRIEST would sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat it would accomplish two things......

a. The Cherub which are also identified at the "WATCHERS" would not be able to see the condemnation of the LAW against man found therein and the GLORY of GOD would come down, receive the offering of blood and the people would be restored and or safe for another year.....

NOTE.....these sacrifices offered yearly would NOT forgive and or redeem man before GOD....they were a PICTURE, TYPE, Shadow of what would ultimately take place in CHRIST when he would finally be crucified, offered for sin as the LAMB of God and then OFFER his blood on the mercy seat in HEAVEN before the Heavenly Father........

 

[PERFECTION]

You posted the Thread...…..do you not have an opinion? Would be nice to hear it.

Well I think God can just say it’s protected and it will, I’m still wondering about the sword placement?

I think we can agree that the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, it is a consuming Fire. As for it being placed at the entrance of the garden, its placed there to protect the way of the Tree of Life. We know also that Jesus is always , past, present and future , the Tree of Life. Revelation 2:7 also verse 12.
Thank God almighty the gentiles have been given access to this Tree of Life.

 

[JamOn]

I think we can agree that the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, it is a consuming Fire. As for it being placed at the entrance of the garden, its placed there to protect the way of the Tree of Life. We know also that Jesus is always , past, present and future , the Tree of Life. Revelation 2:7 also verse 12.
Thank God almighty the gentiles have been given access to this Tree of Life.

Kind of seems like the whole thing was surrounded including the four rivers with only one entrance.

 

[PERFECTION]

Kind of seems like the whole thing was surrounded including the four rivers with only one entrance.

Kind of seems like the whole thing was surrounded including the four rivers with only one entrance.

It is not a physical place its a spiritual place. Of course all things pertaining to God are. Theologians who continually attempt to equate bible prophecies to natural things will always come up empty. You are far, far,far more than can be seen with the natural eye or that can be understood with human reasoning. Your relationship with God is Holy ground and He stands watch day and night over this Holy place. The Lord is a jealous God and He holds you tight to Himself and there is no space for anyone else. What He speaks to you is for your ears and yours alone. You can share what He says to you but it will never thrill anyone else the way it excited you. If anyone else wants to know Him the way you know Him they must seek Him with hunger.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Another point: Ezekiel 28:14 could just as well describe Adam before his fall.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub (Heb. kə-rūḇ) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I do not believe Adam was ever a kə-rūḇ.

Genesis 3:24 tells us So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden kə-rūḇ, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

At this point, there were only Adam and Eve. If the kə-rūḇ of Ez 28:14 was "Adam before his fall", where did these other kə-rūḇ (plural in Gen 3:24) come from? Adam and Eve had no offspring and when they did, their progeny was not made in the image of God (as God had made Adam). The progeny of Adam and Eve were begotten in his [Adam's] own likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3).

Gen 3:24 is the first use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture. In Gen 3:24, the purpose of the kə-rūḇ was to to keep the way of the tree of life.

The second use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture is in Ex 25:18 And thou shall make two kə-rūḇ of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

The mercy seat is where Moses would meet with God. Is this a similar function to the kə-rūḇ which were placed at the east of the garden of Eden?

 

[PERFECTION]

You posted the Thread...…..do you not have an opinion? Would be nice to hear it.

Hope you were able to read some of my other post on this matter if not I will be more than happy to converse with you further


Ro

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub (Heb. kə-rūḇ) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I do not believe Adam was ever a kə-rūḇ.

Genesis 3:24 tells us So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden kə-rūḇ, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

At this point, there were only Adam and Eve. If the kə-rūḇ of Ez 28:14 was "Adam before his fall", where did these other kə-rūḇ (plural in Gen 3:24) come from? Adam and Eve had no offspring and when they did, their progeny was not made in the image of God (as God had made Adam). The progeny of Adam and Eve were begotten in his [Adam's] own likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3).

Gen 3:24 is the first use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture. In Gen 3:24, the purpose of the kə-rūḇ was to to keep the way of the tree of life.

The second use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture is in Ex 25:18 And thou shall make two kə-rūḇ of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

The mercy seat is where Moses would meet with God. Is this a similar function to the kə-rūḇ which were placed at the east of the garden of Eden?

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub (Heb. kə-rūḇ) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I do not believe Adam was ever a kə-rūḇ.

Genesis 3:24 tells us So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden kə-rūḇ, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

At this point, there were only Adam and Eve. If the kə-rūḇ of Ez 28:14 was "Adam before his fall", where did these other kə-rūḇ (plural in Gen 3:24) come from? Adam and Eve had no offspring and when they did, their progeny was not made in the image of God (as God had made Adam). The progeny of Adam and Eve were begotten in his [Adam's] own likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3).

Gen 3:24 is the first use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture. In Gen 3:24, the purpose of the kə-rūḇ was to to keep the way of the tree of life.

The second use of the word kə-rūḇ in Scripture is in Ex 25:18 And thou shall make two kə-rūḇ of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

The mercy seat is where Moses would meet with God. Is this a similar function to the kə-rūḇ which were placed at the east of the garden of Eden?

Adam and Eve did have children I Think the only question is how many before the fall and how many after. This will be a matter of debate until Jesus comes. Personally I believe they had many children before the fall nevertheless none of their children where held accountable for their sins because there was no law to condemn them. Where there is no law there is no transgression. One thing I might add
Adam and Eve were the highest order of creation next to the trinity .

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Adam and Eve did have children I Think the only question is how many before the fall and how many after. This will be a matter of debate until Jesus comes.

Please provide chapter and verse concerning children Adam and Eve had before the fall. Thank you.

Personally I believe they had many children before the fall nevertheless none of their children where held accountable for their sins because there was no law to condemn them. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

You have taken Rom 4:15 out of its context and use the verse to prop up your assertion that Adam and Eve had children before the fall?

Where are these children of Adam and Eve? Are they still in the garden of Eden? And we cannot see them because God set the cherubim up between them and fallen man?

 

[Adstar]

Your thoughts: The cherubs above the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant who are these creatures and why was God so specific that when finished the faces of these creatures should always be toward the mercy seat?
Ref: Ex: chapter 25,26,36 and 37.

There are cherubims in Heaven.. Angelic hybrid type angels with both beast and human features.. satan was for a time a cherubim and was part of the throne of God.. having wings to form a covering over God..

The most graphical description of cherabims i know of is in the book of Ezekial

Ezekiel 1: KJV
4 "¶ And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. {5} Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. {6} And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. {7} And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. {8} And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

{9} Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. {10} As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. {11} Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. {12} And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

{13} As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. {14} And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning."

 

[posthuman]

How many fit on the head of a pin?

 

[PERFECTION]

Please provide chapter and verse concerning children Adam and Eve had before the fall. Thank you.

As far as I know there is not scripture that states directly Adam and Eve had children before the fall. However Gen 3;16 does give us one clue. The verse has God telling Eve "I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception " The word multiply is key as to why I believe this way. Also it could explain Gen 6:4 talks about "the sons of God" and men of renown . Anyway its just my thoughts its not worth making a religion out of it.

However when it comes to Rom 4:15 the scripture is very clear where there is no law there is no transgression. The law was not given until the Hebrews rebelled against God (or Moses depending on how you choose to see it) in the Sini. God did not agree with their demand for the law, but He granted their demand. God wanted the people to follow Moses as He led Moses. He wanted them to follow by faith not by the law. The scripture tells us that God granted the law in order that " sin might become exceedingly sinful". Paul spent a great deal of time with early Christians explaining that their salvation came through faith and not by works. By works he meant following after the law.

When it comes to the dispensation between the creation of man and his fall we have very little scripture to help us.
I guess this brings the question. Is this a subject worth spending study time on? I have spent study time on the subject and do not regret doing so. However, in the end, your opinion is just as valid as mine.


You have taken Rom 4:15 out of its context and use the verse to prop up your assertion that Adam and Eve had children before the fall?

Where are these children of Adam and Eve? Are they still in the garden of Eden? And we cannot see them because God set the cherubim up between them and fallen man?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The cherubs above the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant who are these creatures and why was God so specific that when finished the faces of these creatures should always be toward the mercy seat?

The plural of cherub is cherubim. You may have had a typo in the title, and there was no need to add an "s" at the end since in Hebrew the "-im" ending gives the plural.

The cherubim are angelic beings of the highest order, and they surround the throne of God in Heaven. They are called *living creatures*. Their sole purpose is to praise God and His holiness continually. Therefore their faces were towards the mercy seat above the Ark of the Covenant. The true Mercy Seat is God's throne in Heaven, but while the tabernacle or temple were standing on earth, the glory of God (or the Shekinah of God) would appear between the cherubim and above the mercy seat. Then God would communicate with Moses (in the tabernacle).

 

[Nehemiah6]

How do you reconcile scripture that separates the difference between angles and cherubs?

The holy angels are with God in Heaven, but the cherubim (also angelic beings) are assigned to the throne of God. They are also quite different in appearance from the other angels. Lucifer was a cherub before he became ha Satan (the Adversary).

 

[PERFECTION]

The holy angels are with God in Heaven, but the cherubim (also angelic beings) are assigned to the throne of God. They are also quite different in appearance from the other angels. Lucifer was a cherub before he became ha Satan (the Adversary).

The holy angels are with God in Heaven, but the cherubim (also angelic beings) are assigned to the throne of God. They are also quite different in appearance from the other angels. Lucifer was a cherub before he became ha Satan (the Adversary).

 

[PERFECTION]

I posted on this before concerning Lucifer. There is no scripture that says Lucifer is satan. I realize how greatly opinions differ on this.
So in the face of such controversy why cant we just go with what the scripture says? It is just impossible for me to believe this angle of darkness full of evil who hated God resided in heaven dwelling around the Thorn of God who created him and then at some point he told God he has had enough and he's leaving. I mean the idea that this being who was created without free will how did he pull it off?
If we believe he did have free will then we also have to believe God would have offered a path to redemption. This is the difference between free will and no free will. Was satan an angle, yes he was. But he was created to do what he does. He has no choice because he has no free will. Why is this so important? It is the mission of the elders of the church (the only church) to teach guide and protect those in their care. If the evil one comes to steel one of weak among us how can we take authority over this creature if we do not know from where his authority comes. Because his power comes from God then the righteous having inherited the right to evoke The Name Of God. The AUTHORITY which comes with the Name of Jesus is absolute. But on the other hand this evil creature known as satan does not have to yield to the name Jesus because he like us has a free will and can choose to yield or not to yield. Any man (no matter what gender) can accept or refuse to obey God. The ministry to the saints of God has not been assigned to any one individual it is the ministry of the Body of Christ. Where are these crippled who can now walk, where are the blind who have been made to see, where are those who where demon processed but now are free, where are the ones who can speak with authority over the devil, where are the ones who KNOW where this satan came from ,why he is here and can speak with absolute authority in directing him where he can and cannot go, WHERE IS FORCE JESUS PUT IN THIS EARTH TO DEAL WITH THIS EVIL, WHERE IS THE CHURCH.

This church has not emerged as yet but I am in no way dismayed because I know that when the time has been made full all creation will witness on this earth a victorious and glorious church just as Jesus has said.

Let the Righteous be strong having made our stand on the word God let us stand. Amen

 

[posthuman]

this being who was created without free will

Where do you get this idea?

 

[posthuman]

If we believe he did have free will then we also have to believe God would have offered a path to redemption.

What was this path for Adam?

 

[Scribe]

When I read the book of Acts I do not see that they had to understand the unwritten details about satan that are not recorded in scripture in order to cast out devils. They simply had faith in the authority of Jesus Christ, who He was, and that did the trick. You seem to be suggesting that it requires some deeper understanding of whether satan has free will or not. I can't imagine any of the apostles discussing this concept of satan before simply obeying Christ's command to cast out devils in His Name. Faith seemed to be the main point. When they could not cast a demon out it was lack of faith not lack of understanding the origin of satan.

 

[SoulWeaver]

They can be found right here.

Joh 20:12 (KJV) And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Christ on the mercy seat with two angels facing him.

Oh my God (not profanely so) that's so profoundly beautiful I wish I could give you more reactions. Made me want to dance and cry at the same time.

 

[KJV1611]

Oh my God (not profanely so) that's so profoundly beautiful I wish I could give you more reactions. Made me want to dance and cry at the same time.

I know! Is that cool or what. I felt the same way when God showed it to me.... awesome!