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Incorrect. One of the Church Fathers mentioned the Trinity prior to 325 AD. This is an ant-Trinitarian myth.
The principles of the Trinity are plainly biblical, and all of Scripture's statements concerning the nature of God cannot be reconciled without the doctrine.
Additionally, the doctrine of the Trinity is inferred by Scriptures such as Matt 28:18-20 and 2 Cor 13:14.
The true Church did not need to address this issue with such force until Arian heretics began to erode the Christian teaching that Jesus is God, and this happened very quickly after Christianity was given legal status in the Roman Empire. When Satan found that he could not destroy the Church by force, he switched to doctrinal decay from Arians and other heretical trash.
The principles of the Trinity are plainly biblical, and all of Scripture's statements concerning the nature of God cannot be reconciled without the doctrine.
Additionally, the doctrine of the Trinity is inferred by Scriptures such as Matt 28:18-20 and 2 Cor 13:14.
The true Church did not need to address this issue with such force until Arian heretics began to erode the Christian teaching that Jesus is God, and this happened very quickly after Christianity was given legal status in the Roman Empire. When Satan found that he could not destroy the Church by force, he switched to doctrinal decay from Arians and other heretical trash.
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Notice the current tense of the verbs. At the time Paul wrote his epistle, he was making a statement. He wasn't making a statement as of the Incarnation.
However, Jesus was one with the Father, in the sense of his deity, even while incarnated, he was one with the Father in essence. Read John 5, 10.
As I have said, Jesus is God (YHVH). YHVH didn't change during the Incarnation. Jesus took on an additional nature; an incarnated human. He did not operate with his divine prerogatives as a human, though, he "cloaked" his divinity and the miracles that were done through Him were not independent of the Father.
For those who are truly open-minded, I suggest reading about the hypostatic union in this regard. For those who are self-sufficient and unteachable, continue on in your blindness. There is a day of reckoning for your efforts for failing to give honor to the Son.
https://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html
However, Jesus was one with the Father, in the sense of his deity, even while incarnated, he was one with the Father in essence. Read John 5, 10.
As I have said, Jesus is God (YHVH). YHVH didn't change during the Incarnation. Jesus took on an additional nature; an incarnated human. He did not operate with his divine prerogatives as a human, though, he "cloaked" his divinity and the miracles that were done through Him were not independent of the Father.
For those who are truly open-minded, I suggest reading about the hypostatic union in this regard. For those who are self-sufficient and unteachable, continue on in your blindness. There is a day of reckoning for your efforts for failing to give honor to the Son.
https://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html
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All deity dwelling in bodily form in Jesus is a problem for the Trinity doctrine no matter the tense used. How are you going to start telling me that Jesus at that particular moment, was 3 distinct persons, one essence or is it 3 distinct persons, one body?!
Your arguments don't much biblical sense to me and i'm not interested.
Your arguments don't much biblical sense to me and i'm not interested.
For those who are teachable, I suggest studying “mutual indwelling”. It is the same thing as the coessential nature of the Triune God and is Scripturally supported.
The books by Tim Chester and Michael Reeves called Delighting in the Trinity would cover these topics.
By the way, being joined to Jesus brings the believer into fellowship with the Triune God and gives us eternal life so these concepts are necessary to a robust understanding of salvation. They are not meaningless inquiries.
The books by Tim Chester and Michael Reeves called Delighting in the Trinity would cover these topics.
By the way, being joined to Jesus brings the believer into fellowship with the Triune God and gives us eternal life so these concepts are necessary to a robust understanding of salvation. They are not meaningless inquiries.
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J
Tertullian making a trinity like statement is not a group of Christians proclaiming a belief, that would come 75 years later, like I already said,
I didnt say principles, elements, or bits and pieces, I said a formal teaching of the doctrine of the trinity, I even gave you an example of what that meant.
There was little “force” applied to the Arias generation nor was the much force applied to the next few generations, we do not see that until around the 600s.
The true church, you mean rome? They are the ones that killed Jesus, killed/imprisoned the 12 Apostles and st Paul, that church?
Interesting that when we apply what Jesus taught, fruits, to these two churches, rome and alexandria, we get the opposite of what your saying.
First of all the Alexandrian Christians never killed people to spread their teachings, they also didnt have a political agenda being as Christianity was one of many beliefs in the area and all were welcome.
I didnt say principles, elements, or bits and pieces, I said a formal teaching of the doctrine of the trinity, I even gave you an example of what that meant.
There was little “force” applied to the Arias generation nor was the much force applied to the next few generations, we do not see that until around the 600s.
The true church, you mean rome? They are the ones that killed Jesus, killed/imprisoned the 12 Apostles and st Paul, that church?
Interesting that when we apply what Jesus taught, fruits, to these two churches, rome and alexandria, we get the opposite of what your saying.
First of all the Alexandrian Christians never killed people to spread their teachings, they also didnt have a political agenda being as Christianity was one of many beliefs in the area and all were welcome.
1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
The Blessed Trinity is three divine Persons in one undivided God. It was Jesus Christ Himself who revealed the Blessed Trinity. Sacred Scripture clearly testifies to the existence of three distinct Persons in the one God:
"Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him..." (Gen. 1, 26-27);
"Then the Lord God said, See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil..." (Gen. 3, 22);
"...Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there..." (Gen. 11, 7);
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (St. Matt. 28, 19-20);
"And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased" (St. Mark 1, 10-11).
This last verse most clearly reveals the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus Christ coming out of the water and His Father’s voice from heaven. The Holy Spirit, the Third Person, is revealed as a dove, descending from heaven onto Christ.
Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is equal to the Father:
"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel, which means, God with us..." (St. Matt. 1, 23);
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
St. John 1, 1).
The Word was with God in the beginning, and the Word was God. Two divine Persons, yet only one undivided God.
"The Father and I are one" (St. John 10, 30);
"...the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (St. John 10, 38);
"...Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (St. John 14, 9).
The Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son as the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, will be a living teacher of truth:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate (Holy Spirit)..." (St. John 14, 16);
"...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything..." (St. John 14, 26);
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come" (St. John 16, 13).
To sin against the Holy Spirit is to sin against God:
"...why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?...You did not lie to us but to God!" (Acts 5, 3-4).
The Fathers:
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians (C. 98 A.D.):
"Do we not have one God, one Christ, and one Spirit of Grace poured out upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?"
The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (C. 155 - 157 A.D.):
"...In this way and for all things I do praise you, I do bless you, I do glorify you through the eternal and heavenly High Priest Jesus Christ, your beloved child: through whom be glory to you with Him and with the Holy Spirit, both now and through ages yet to come. Amen."
St. Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus (181 A.D.):
"The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom."
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):
"If any one, therefore says to us, ‘How then was the Son produced by the Father?’ we reply to him, that no man understands that production, or generation, or calling, or revelation, or by whatever name one may describe His generation, which is in fact altogether indescribable. Neither Valentinus, nor Marcion, nor Saturninus, nor Basilides, nor angels, not archangels, nor principalities, nor powers (possess this knowledge), but the Father only who begat, and the Son who was begotten. Since therefore His generation is unspeakable, those who strive to set forth generations and productions cannot be in their right mind, inasmuch as they undertake to describe things that are indescribable."
St. Ambrose of Milan, Hexameron (Post 389 A.D.):
"But let us consider the course of our own creation. He says: ‘Let Us make man to our image and to our likeness.’ Who says this? Is it not God, who made you?...To whom does He say it? Certainly not to Himself, for He does not say ‘Let Me make’ but ‘Let Us make.’ Nor to the Angels, for they are ministers; and servants can have no partnership in the operation of the master, nor works with their author. It is the Son to whom He speaks, even if the Jews will not have it and the Arians fight against it...[And it is the Son] who is the image of God the Father, the Son who always is and who was in the beginning."
St. Augustine of Hippo (+430 A.D.), De Trinitate, Bk. 7, Ch. 4:
"For that which must be understood of persons according to our usage, this is to be understood of substances according to the Greek usage; for they say three substances, one essence, in the same way as we say three persons, one essence or substance."
https://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm#THE BLESSED TRINITY
"Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him..." (Gen. 1, 26-27);
"Then the Lord God said, See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil..." (Gen. 3, 22);
"...Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there..." (Gen. 11, 7);
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (St. Matt. 28, 19-20);
"And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased" (St. Mark 1, 10-11).
This last verse most clearly reveals the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus Christ coming out of the water and His Father’s voice from heaven. The Holy Spirit, the Third Person, is revealed as a dove, descending from heaven onto Christ.
Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is equal to the Father:
"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel, which means, God with us..." (St. Matt. 1, 23);
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
St. John 1, 1).
The Word was with God in the beginning, and the Word was God. Two divine Persons, yet only one undivided God.
"The Father and I are one" (St. John 10, 30);
"...the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (St. John 10, 38);
"...Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (St. John 14, 9).
The Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son as the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, will be a living teacher of truth:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate (Holy Spirit)..." (St. John 14, 16);
"...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything..." (St. John 14, 26);
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come" (St. John 16, 13).
To sin against the Holy Spirit is to sin against God:
"...why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?...You did not lie to us but to God!" (Acts 5, 3-4).
The Fathers:
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians (C. 98 A.D.):
"Do we not have one God, one Christ, and one Spirit of Grace poured out upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?"
The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (C. 155 - 157 A.D.):
"...In this way and for all things I do praise you, I do bless you, I do glorify you through the eternal and heavenly High Priest Jesus Christ, your beloved child: through whom be glory to you with Him and with the Holy Spirit, both now and through ages yet to come. Amen."
St. Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus (181 A.D.):
"The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom."
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):
"If any one, therefore says to us, ‘How then was the Son produced by the Father?’ we reply to him, that no man understands that production, or generation, or calling, or revelation, or by whatever name one may describe His generation, which is in fact altogether indescribable. Neither Valentinus, nor Marcion, nor Saturninus, nor Basilides, nor angels, not archangels, nor principalities, nor powers (possess this knowledge), but the Father only who begat, and the Son who was begotten. Since therefore His generation is unspeakable, those who strive to set forth generations and productions cannot be in their right mind, inasmuch as they undertake to describe things that are indescribable."
St. Ambrose of Milan, Hexameron (Post 389 A.D.):
"But let us consider the course of our own creation. He says: ‘Let Us make man to our image and to our likeness.’ Who says this? Is it not God, who made you?...To whom does He say it? Certainly not to Himself, for He does not say ‘Let Me make’ but ‘Let Us make.’ Nor to the Angels, for they are ministers; and servants can have no partnership in the operation of the master, nor works with their author. It is the Son to whom He speaks, even if the Jews will not have it and the Arians fight against it...[And it is the Son] who is the image of God the Father, the Son who always is and who was in the beginning."
St. Augustine of Hippo (+430 A.D.), De Trinitate, Bk. 7, Ch. 4:
"For that which must be understood of persons according to our usage, this is to be understood of substances according to the Greek usage; for they say three substances, one essence, in the same way as we say three persons, one essence or substance."
https://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm#THE BLESSED TRINITY
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Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
https://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
https://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes
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Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html