Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[posthuman]

From where, when and by whom did the Designator "Old Testament" and "New Testament" originate?

per Wiki:

Etymology​

The use of the phrase New Testament (Koine Greek: Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη, Hē Kainḕ Diathḗkē) to describe a collection of first and second-century Christian Greek scriptures can be traced back to Tertullian in his work Against Praxeas.[6][7][8] Irenaeus uses the phrase "New Testament" several times, but does not use it in reference to any written text.[7] In Against Marcion, written c. 208 AD, Tertullian writes of:[9]​

​

the Divine Word, who is doubly edged with the two testaments of the law and the gospel.​

And Tertullian continues later in the book, writing:[10][note 2]​

​

it is certain that the whole aim at which he [Marcion] has strenuously laboured, even in the drawing up of his Antitheses, centres in this, that he may establish a diversity between the Old and the New Testaments, so that his own Christ may be separate from the Creator, as belonging to this rival god, and as alien from the law and the prophets.​

​

 

[posthuman]

Do these terms guide men's conceptualization of the works of each and from there leave them ripe for misdirection?

maybe if you have not read or have failed to comprehend that God has offered a new covenant in Christ, and you conflate the shadows with the substance, not recognizing each for each.

re: Matthew 26:28, Luke 22:20, Hebrews 9:20, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 3:18, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 1:11, Colossians 2:14-16, Job 9, John 1, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc etc etc

 

[gb9]

maybe if you have not read or have failed to comprehend that God has offered a new covenant in Christ, and you conflate the shadows with the substance, not recognizing each for each.

re: Matthew 26:28, Luke 22:20, Hebrews 9:20, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 3:18, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 1:11, Colossians 2:14-16, Job 9, John 1, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc etc etc

keep in mind, when mr. gardener first came on here, he denied all the Hebrew roots stuff, with a Renewed covenant instead of a NEW Covenant, said he was not pushing these things he now openly pushes.

so, honesty and transparency seem to have little value to him.....

 

[Grandpa]

It is not jealousy, it is sorrow for you. Our works follow us. They are all we can take with us, but you don't want any. What is worse "your teaching", that results in making others feel like works are bad. Your teaching causes believers to "question" works, like they might not be good or desired by the Lord. That is like teaching the law is of death, or puts you in bondage, or you "work" it.

Your works follow you and they are all you can take with you.

That is sad. You must have a LOT of sadness if you think that.

Believers Have Christ. That is what Believers take with them. That is what a Believer is. Someone who believes in and has Christ.

Someone who works at the law is WEAK in the faith. Someone who thinks all they can take with them is their work at the law is HUGELY WEAK in the faith and probably very sad about it.

Why would you want to drag anyone else into this sad, weak theology?

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Time to figure something else out, looks like the ONLY thing YOU can take with you doesn't justify you before God.

 

[SimpleGardner]

we are not arguing against righteousness at all, because righteousness does not come by the law. Galatians 2:21. we are in fact arguing for righteousness, the kind of righteousness God accepts, which is that which is by faith. that does not mean 'inaction' or 'do nothing' -- those are false characterizations and slanderous charges that should not go on being repeated by people who know better.

Greetings PH,

Faith had been part of the dynamic between man and God since the beginning.

Faith is not a new phenomenon.

What is new for faith to be enacted on, as "faith" is an action word, are the redemption that has been provided and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, to put in our hearts the will and desire to keep the "Righteousness" God ordained for His creation from the beginning.

Gods requirements have always been and always will be as long as there is a heaven and an earth and men with free wills who inhabit it.

These are immutable facts.

The faith we enact is to believe that the righteousness which is required to begin fellowship with Gods Holy Spirit has been purchased for us and is ours if we accept the invitation of The Heavenly Father to recognize our need to repent from our sins and then to receive the gift of justification through Yahshua whom we covenant with. In that covenant we acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. As Lord we pledge to Keep His commands and as Savior we accept redemption through His sacrifice and remain mindful of this. Part of our obedience to Him is to be baptised and to receive The Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth and keeps us obedient to His commands.

Every one of these is unseen but is made manifest through the obedience that is enacted through faith in all of them. What is made manifest is an New Creation man who is obedient to Gods will/Commands.

 

[Grandpa]

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:15

Israel is the recipient of the first covenant. Are they not recipient of the new covenant?

But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because THEY DID NOT REMAIN FAITHFUL to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Hebrews 8:8-10

Are we suppose to REMAIN faithful or not?
What will God put in their/our hearts that we should remain faithful to?
Now, what are you boasting about?

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:17-22

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His LOVE endures forever.

Remain faithful to what? Your understanding of working at the law??? Or Gods Law which is written in our hearts? Its not the 10 commandments that are written there.

Boasting about? I'm not boasting about anything. I'm explaining simple concepts.

Well, they seem simple to me. And Christians ABSOLUTELY should recognize what I am saying.

But those who INSIST on working at the law DON'T recognize what I am saying.

I can only come to one conclusion. Legalists and Judaizers haven't received Rest from Christ. It kind of makes me wonder what else they have not received.


I really don't think you can understand Scripture if you don't understand the Rest that Christians receive from Christ and all the Blessing and Provision that goes along with this Rest.

People who have received Rest from Christ, I don't have to explain to them why they are no longer under the law. I don't have to explain to them how and why they are Righteous even though they are NOT under the law or WORKING at it.


But legalists and Judaizers twist all the scripture to make Rest in Christ somehow mean working at the law. It is so simple to show that Rest is NOT working at the law I don't really know why legalists and Judaizers are so adamant in their failed position. Makes me think they just don't know any other way.


Were you under the law at some point then came to Christ and received Rest and then went back to being under the law?

Or did you start reading the bible and decide for yourself that you are under the law?

I think it must happen the 2nd way. I cannot fathom someone Receiving Rest in Christ and going back to their own work at the law. I was extraordinarily dumb before the Lord but even I wasn't that dumb.

 

[Grandpa]

Greetings PH,

Faith had been part of the dynamic between man and God since the beginning.

Faith is not a new phenomenon.

What is new for faith to be enacted on, as "faith" is an action word, are the redemption that has been provided and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, to put in our hearts the will and desire to keep the "Righteousness" God ordained for His creation from the beginning.

Gods requirements have always been and always will be as long as there is a heaven and an earth and men with free wills who inhabit it.

These are immutable facts.

The faith we enact is to believe that the righteousness which is required to begin fellowship with Gods Holy Spirit has been purchased for us and is ours if we accept the invitation of The Heavenly Father to recognize our need to repent from our sins and then to receive the gift of justification through Yahshua whom we covenant with. In that covenant we acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. As Lord we pledge to Keep His commands and as Savior we accept redemption through His sacrifice and remain mindful of this. Part of our obedience to Him is to be baptised and to receive The Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth and keeps us obedient to His commands.

Every one of these is unseen but is made manifest through the obedience that is enacted through faith in all of them. What is made manifest is an New Creation man who is obedient to Gods will/Commands.

In the New Covenant there is no need to pledge to Keep the 10 Commandments.

That is part of our rest in Christ. When God writes His Law on our hearts and in our minds it is His Law that fulfills those 10 commandments.

That is why we are righteous before Him even though we don't work at the law. We rest in Christ. We abide in Christ.


Our fight is to remain in the Faith. Because lots of things, such as legalists and Judaizers and every other religion on the face of the planet, come against this faith. Trying to preach and teach works Righteousness. Steps to God. Be morally good and God will accept you. The humanist approach. It sounds really good. It even makes sense to most people who don't really have any inclination on coming before God.

The Just shall walk by faith. And the law is not of faith.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Someone who works at the law is WEAK in the faith. Someone who thinks all they can take with them is their work at the law is HUGELY WEAK in the faith and probably very sad about it.

Faith only and no good works = Hypocrite
Good works only and no Faith = Hypocrite


1Co 3:11-13 KJV
(11)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


If you are uninspired to do "good works" ask yourself; "WHY?"

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I criticizing another who agrees with "good works" too?

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do not do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I resisting the Holy Spirit"?

There are definitely TWO EXTREMES, Both are hypocrites!;

One is;

"All Faith"

The other is

"all works"

Jas 1:22-25 NIV Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. (23) Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror (24) and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. (25) But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you know which "word" James was referring to? Take a guess.

Do you assume that you are perfect in your balance of Faith and Works and assume everyone else is not? If so how did you become so Righteous as to judge a mans motives?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Good words by Finney:

THERE are two extremes in religion, equally false and equally fatal. And there are two classes of hypocrites that occupy these two extremes. The first class make religion consist altogether in the belief of certain abstract doctrines, or what they call faith, and lay little or no stress on good works. The other class make religion to consist altogether in good works, (I mean dead works,) and lay little or no stress on faith in Jesus Christ, but hope for salvation by their own deeds. The Jews belonged generally to the last mentioned class. Their religious teachers taught them that they would be saved by obedience to the ceremonial law. And therefore, when Paul began to preach, he seems to have attacked more especially this error of the Jews. He was determined to carry the main question, that men are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, in opposition to the doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees, that salvation is by obedience to law. And he pressed this point so earnestly, in his preaching and in his epistles, that he carried it, and settled the faith of the church in the great doctrine of justification by faith. And then certain individuals in the church laid hold of this doctrine and carried it to the opposite extreme, and maintained that men are saved by faith altogether, irrespective of works of any kind. They overlooked the plain principle, that genuine faith always results in good works, and is itself a good work.

 

[Grandpa]

Faith only and no good works = Hypocrite
Good works only and no Faith = Hypocrite


1Co 3:11-13 KJV
(11)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


If you are uninspired to do "good works" ask yourself; "WHY?"

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I criticizing another who agrees with "good works" too?

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do not do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I resisting the Holy Spirit"?

There are definitely TWO EXTREMES, Both are hypocrites!;

One is;

"All Faith"

The other is

"all works"

Jas 1:22-25 NIV Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. (23) Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror (24) and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. (25) But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you know which "word" James was referring to? Take a guess.

Do you assume that you are perfect in your balance of Faith and Works and assume everyone else is not? If so how did you become so Righteous as to judge a mans motives?

The first one "Faith only and no good works" is an impossible strawman construct.

But those who trust only in their work don't get it. Can't get it, I think.

Mostly because they don't understand the very Scripture that they post. If they did they would see that their own scripture defeats their own point they are trying to make.

Every mans work shall be made manifest. Roger that. What work are you doing that is making you Righteous? Is "keeping" your understanding of the law doing it?

My work is abiding in Christ. Any work that comes from His Workmanship is what will survive the fire.


Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourself. Do what it says. DO WHAT IT SAYS.

Step 1.
Be perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This step is fairly difficult. Don't get too bummed out when you find out God is more Perfect than you. That's why step 2 is so necessary.

Step 2.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Step 3.
Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[gb9]

Faith only and no good works = Hypocrite
Good works only and no Faith = Hypocrite


1Co 3:11-13 KJV
(11)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


If you are uninspired to do "good works" ask yourself; "WHY?"

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I criticizing another who agrees with "good works" too?

If you are inspired to do "good works" and do not do them, then ask yourself "WHY am I resisting the Holy Spirit"?

There are definitely TWO EXTREMES, Both are hypocrites!;

One is;

"All Faith"

The other is

"all works"

Jas 1:22-25 NIV Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. (23) Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror (24) and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. (25) But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you know which "word" James was referring to? Take a guess.

Do you assume that you are perfect in your balance of Faith and Works and assume everyone else is not? If so how did you become so Righteous as to judge a mans motives?

don't have to guess. He was referring to Christ. the word logos means a thought , expression, saying, predominantly of Christ.

amazing thing, language. clears up a lot of confusion when you study and except it.

 

[DeighAnn]

Your works follow you and they are all you can take with you.

That is sad. You must have a LOT of sadness if you think that.

Believers Have Christ. That is what Believers take with them. That is what a Believer is. Someone who believes in and has Christ.

Someone who works at the law is WEAK in the faith. Someone who thinks all they can take with them is their work at the law is HUGELY WEAK in the faith and probably very sad about it.

Why would you want to drag anyone else into this sad, weak theology?

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Time to figure something else out, looks like the ONLY thing YOU can take with you doesn't justify you before God.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.

As you can see, well not necessarily you, my sadness is for you, for WHAT I QUOTED, it is straight from Gods Word. Those who have Christ have His Word. We believers that have His Word, hold ALL His Word as truth.
WE do not have the permission from the "flesh, world view" to take out, nor add any to that Word. ALSO, we who have and believe in Christ, DO NOT, AS YOU DO, take what someone ELSE has said, then "add" or "change" to our own words and thoughts, (such as you have done here and as you have done in the past, and will continue to do, not only to me but to anyone who does not agree with the traditions of man you must put forth), I believe on purpose. THAT WAY, is not of my FATHER, as that goes against commands He has given, commands, or laws, that you don't want or need to adhere to or haven't in the past and certainly haven't today once again.

I am not the one dragging anyone anywhere. It is you, by the changing of what I say into something YOU SAY, I say. THAT IS A PROBLEM. QUIT PUTTING YOUR WORDS AND THOUGHTS DOWN AS MINE. THAT IS CALLED LYING. IT IS DECEPTIVE, IT IS OF DECEPTION. it is not of God.

YOU AND YOUR BELIEFS ARE JUST LIKE TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN EVOLUTION. THEY WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE FACTS THAT BACK UP THEIR POSITION, PROVEN BY "LEARNED MEN". THEY WILL TELL YOU IT IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE TRUTH. THEY WILL TEACH IT AS IF IT WERE. THEY WILL CALL YOU NAMES AND TELL YOU YOU ARE STUPID IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEIR WAY.
BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DEAD WRONG.
i did not mention being justified, or saved or anything else by works. Once again, you added that all on your own. You adhere to that teaching if you say it enough times people will start to believe it. Problem with that is you didn't get to the end of that teaching.


Well, I am sure you will soon take this argument and switch it up to fit for you and your errors in knowledge and make it as your own, somehow. That is your modus operandi isn't it?

 

[Grandpa]

.
Do you assume that you are perfect in your balance of Faith and Works and assume everyone else is not? If so how did you become so Righteous as to judge a mans motives?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?




Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look at that. More rest in Christ. And Blessing. All contained in Salvation.


Its kind of funny that the only way to be a Perfect Legalist is to rest from your work and understanding at the law and only abide in Christ.

God being funny? I suppose since He said He was going to do it that way SEVERAL times in Scripture it shouldn't have come as a surprise.


Christianity is not so difficult. Its pretty simple. Its just lawyers and pharisees that complicate it.

 

[wokinluv]

The Gospel is well encapsulated in the words of Jesus who said, "I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life."

In verse 11 Jesus said, "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me" meaning quite literally that Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh.

The Jews quite rightly look to God for salvation, which they did by following the commandments, for the most part sincerely and faithfully, but never perfectly due to our human nature, to which end God, the perfect one made a way of escape, so that ALL who believe in Him shall be saved.

That Jesus is Yahweh God is clearly stated in scripture. Read on: -

So now, instead of following Old Testament law, people can simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him all the days of their life.

How and what would we follow as children and servants of God?

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6


...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

The problem with OSAS is, the word ALONE attached to faith intends to separate faith from works (of love) which causes division among Christians.

For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:2,6,11

So it is clear that we should combine faith with works(of love) and LOVE is the fulfilment of the law.

If we don't submit and surrender to the Lawgiver and the Judge then we'll become lawless and follow our own will and gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

If we have faith ALONE that can even move mountains but don't have Love, our faith is dead and we are nothing but a worthless servant not known by God and thrown out into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For in Christ Jesus...the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6

I asked you about your simple and honest view of the Gospel because I noticed you said that you remember the death and resurrection of Christ without mentioning His life.(that He lived while on this earth, walking in Love which is in obedience to the commands of the Father) Many OSAS no longer include that part in the gospel for whatever reason, I'm not sure, but it must be because Jesus walked in obedience to God's commands, so if we must walk as Jesus did(1 John 2:3-6) to truly know Him and be known by Him and not be rejected(Matthew 7:11-12, 21-23)but included in Him,(Ephesians 1:13) in His body whom He will save when He returns(Ephesians 5:23) then it will destroy OSAS doctrine of a faith ALONE that saves.

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Or this above must be the reason. But what did Paul say and declare?

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

 

[DeighAnn]

Good words by Finney:

THERE are two extremes in religion, equally false and equally fatal. And there are two classes of hypocrites that occupy these two extremes. The first class make religion consist altogether in the belief of certain abstract doctrines, or what they call faith, and lay little or no stress on good works. The other class make religion to consist altogether in good works, (I mean dead works,) and lay little or no stress on faith in Jesus Christ, but hope for salvation by their own deeds. The Jews belonged generally to the last mentioned class. Their religious teachers taught them that they would be saved by obedience to the ceremonial law. And therefore, when Paul began to preach, he seems to have attacked more especially this error of the Jews. He was determined to carry the main question, that men are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, in opposition to the doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees, that salvation is by obedience to law. And he pressed this point so earnestly, in his preaching and in his epistles, that he carried it, and settled the faith of the church in the great doctrine of justification by faith. And then certain individuals in the church laid hold of this doctrine and carried it to the opposite extreme, and maintained that men are saved by faith altogether, irrespective of works of any kind. They overlooked the plain principle, that genuine faith always results in good works, and is itself a good work.

That seems to be what we are caught in the middle of today. As for myself, knowing none of the "religions" doctrines of yesterday or today, because I only study the Word and the Word, and the spirit guide me to the truth in that Word, that I find myself defending against "powers and principalities" I have no idea even exist. I have been told so many times "I don't fit" with the others who "believe" in a somewhat "like" manner, but that is the freedom of not knowing what way I am supposed to "believe" .

I think that is why some believe they can just "insert" into the statements of others what they believe is a belief. Satan is doing a marvelous job of confusion, isn't he? Godd points here.

 

[Grandpa]

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.

Ohhh. How sad. I suppose you still haven't really listened to what I said.

But its in the very first Scripture that you posted and didn't understand.


They may REST from their labours and their works do follow them.

Do you understand this is what I have been describing to you (and the other judaizers) for awhile now?

No, of course you don't. Legalists don't really understand the scriptures they post.


Take Matthew 11:28 and then immediately read Ephesians 2:10... See if you can start to understand Rev 14:13...

There's more to it than that but lets start slow...

 

[gb9]

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.

As you can see, well not necessarily you, my sadness is for you, for WHAT I QUOTED, it is straight from Gods Word. Those who have Christ have His Word. We believers that have His Word, hold ALL His Word as truth.
WE do not have the permission from the "flesh, world view" to take out, nor add any to that Word. ALSO, we who have and believe in Christ, DO NOT, AS YOU DO, take what someone ELSE has said, then "add" or "change" to our own words and thoughts, (such as you have done here and as you have done in the past, and will continue to do, not only to me but to anyone who does not agree with the traditions of man you must put forth), I believe on purpose. THAT WAY, is not of my FATHER, as that goes against commands He has given, commands, or laws, that you don't want or need to adhere to or haven't in the past and certainly haven't today once again.

I am not the one dragging anyone anywhere. It is you, by the changing of what I say into something YOU SAY, I say. THAT IS A PROBLEM. QUIT PUTTING YOUR WORDS AND THOUGHTS DOWN AS MINE. THAT IS CALLED LYING. IT IS DECEPTIVE, IT IS OF DECEPTION. it is not of God.

YOU AND YOUR BELIEFS ARE JUST LIKE TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN EVOLUTION. THEY WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE FACTS THAT BACK UP THEIR POSITION, PROVEN BY "LEARNED MEN". THEY WILL TELL YOU IT IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE TRUTH. THEY WILL TEACH IT AS IF IT WERE. THEY WILL CALL YOU NAMES AND TELL YOU YOU ARE STUPID IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEIR WAY.
BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DEAD WRONG.
i did not mention being justified, or saved or anything else by works. Once again, you added that all on your own. You adhere to that teaching if you say it enough times people will start to believe it. Problem with that is you didn't get to the end of that teaching.


Well, I am sure you will soon take this argument and switch it up to fit for you and your errors in knowledge and make it as your own, somehow. That is your modus operandi isn't it?

you mean like mount of Transfiguration is straight from God's word, but you do not want to talk about that.

you mean like Leviticus 26 is straight from God's word, you ignore it.

you mean like the very language the New Testament was written in, does not define the Law as being in multiple parts, you ignore that,


seems you need to not be accusing anyone else of ignoring God's Word when a big part of your silly, easily proven wrong theology is BASED on ignoring parts of God's Word, even the language a good part of it is written in...

 

[DeighAnn]

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?




Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look at that. More rest in Christ. And Blessing. All contained in Salvation.


Its kind of funny that the only way to be a Perfect Legalist is to rest from your work and understanding at the law and only abide in Christ.

God being funny? I suppose since He said He was going to do it that way SEVERAL times in Scripture it shouldn't have come as a surprise.


Christianity is not so difficult. Its pretty simple. Its just lawyers and pharisees that complicate it.

Just because you say it and want it to be true, it isn't. Just because you are afraid to take the first steps on your own doesn't make those who are "working" bad, though you must continue to try and make them feel that way. That OSASed doctrine is just as bad as that rapsure one. They both make the Word of God void. But that is the whole point of the adversary isn't it?

Maybe someday when you have become confident in the saving nature of the Lord, and that it is a place to START from and it will not leave you if you do not leave it, you will be able to step forward, without the fear of losing that, as we all have. We all started right where you are. You just can't seem to move forward past it. Let go of your fear. It is so very sad. God would love to see you progressing in faith. He came and took all the fear of bondage and death away so you could feel free and easy in your walk with and to Him. Safe, protected, knowing His hand is constantly reaching out to guide you and also to pick you up when you stumble and fall. EVEN while we are yet sinners HE STILL LOVES US. He just wants us to try. He sent Christ to do "works" . Can you imagine if Christ would have said "I'll just rest instead, God can do it"? He had to be a "DOER". We need to be "DOERS" OR what are we good for?

 

[Grandpa]

Just because you say it and want it to be true, it isn't. Just because you are afraid to take the first steps on your own doesn't make those who are "working" bad, though you must continue to try and make them feel that way. That OSASed doctrine is just as bad as that rapsure one. They both make the Word of God void. But that is the whole point of the adversary isn't it?

They don't make the Word of God void. They just make your understanding of working for Salvation void.

Big difference between the two.

The adversary is probably the one that came up with working for your salvation. Seems like pretty much the whole world believes that lie.

 

[PS]

How and what would we follow as children and servants of God?

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6


...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

The problem with OSAS is, the word ALONE attached to faith intends to separate faith from works (of love) which causes division among Christians.

For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:2,6,11

So it is clear that we should combine faith with works(of love) and LOVE is the fulfilment of the law.

If we don't submit and surrender to the Lawgiver and the Judge then we'll become lawless and follow our own will and gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

If we have faith ALONE that can even move mountains but don't have Love, our faith is dead and we are nothing but a worthless servant not known by God and thrown out into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For in Christ Jesus...the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6

I asked you about your simple and honest view of the Gospel because I noticed you said that you remember the death and resurrection of Christ without mentioning His life.(that He lived while on this earth, walking in Love which is in obedience to the commands of the Father) Many OSAS no longer include that part in the gospel for whatever reason, I'm not sure, but it must be because Jesus walked in obedience to God's commands, so if we must walk as Jesus did(1 John 2:3-6) to truly know Him and be known by Him and not be rejected(Matthew 7:11-12, 21-23)but included in Him,(Ephesians 1:13) in His body whom He will save when He returns(Ephesians 5:23) then it will destroy OSAS doctrine of a faith ALONE that saves.

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Or this above must be the reason. But what did Paul say and declare?

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

There are far too many issues there. The Gospel is very simple as Paul sets out in 1 Cor 15:3-4.