Thief on the Cross

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

Just because a tradition began years ago and continues unto today does not mean it adheres to what the bible says.

Jesus said to baptize in the NAME of...
The apostles use of Jesus singular name makes it clear what Jesus meant.
Paul's statement confirms the use of the singular name of Jesus as well.

If the record provided even one occurrence of baptism done "in the of name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" I would accept that was what Jesus meant. If there are 2 or 3 scriptures that I am unaware of please provide them.

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

The name of Jesus is used because He was crucified for us. Please consider the words of Paul again:

"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1:13

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." 1 Cor 1:14-15

The verses show reference to an individual name, nothing about authority.

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

Do you really believe the apostle Peter instructed people to do something contrary to Jesus' wishes? Jesus instructed the apostles for 40 days after His resurrection. Ten days later Peter spoke to the crowd and gave the instructions. Throughout scripture there is not one time the phrase, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Significant?

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

You are right. God does not contradict Himself. Jesus said to baptize in a name. All water baptisms recorded are done in the name of the Lord Jesus. No contradiction.

garee · Sep 19, 2019

No "sign gifts". . . which would include the water baptism of those that try and make it a sign gift as a way of confirming some action they do. And call it self edification .(self righteousness ) We walk by faith the unseen eternal and edify God who works in us to both will and do his good pleasure

Yes we are to keep the commandments as law. Water baptism has it roots in a ceremonial law when a new priest had a desire to serve. This as a ceremonial law as a shadow. . Not something we can judged each other by or take credit as if it was a moral law . Those who did try and make it into something that confirm they are believers died.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using

after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2 16-23

garee · Sep 19, 2019

Wansvic said:

In a name not water seen .Water has the authority to get one wet not forgive sins. No sign gifts .We walk by faith as it is written, the unseen eternal.

bluto · Sep 19, 2019

Wansvic said:

What? There is nothing "traditional" about what Jesus commanded at Matthew 28:19. This is just another excuse by you to make void the clear words of Jesus Christ. Secondly, perhaps you can explain to all of us here why at Matthew 28:19 the "Name" is in the singular?

You also made this statement: If the record provided even one occurrence of baptism done "in the of name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" I would accept that was what Jesus meant. If there are 2 or 3 scriptures that I am unaware of please provide them."

No you wouldn't wansvic. I and others here as well as in the Bible you were already given a record as you call it from Acts 10:45 where it clearly says that Cornelius recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit "BEFOR" he was water baptized and you rejected it. God only has to speak once for it to be the truth. Checkmate!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

1ofthem · Sep 19, 2019

I don't know about all of this...I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost....I can't understand what would be wrong with that. Then again, if I was baptized in the Name of Jesus only...I still don't know what would be wrong with that...

To the ones that say you have to be baptized in the name of Jesus only...Do you all think Jesus don't want you to mention the name of the Father and the Holy Ghost? If so why not?

Now to the ones who say you must be Baptized in the the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit....Do you think the Father and the Holy Spirit is gonna get jealous because their name wasn't mentioned?

I'm not trying to be rude here...just trying to understand the dilemma.

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

You clearly don't know what the bible says about how to confirm concepts in God's Word; ie, how to water baptize, when one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. If 2-3 scriptures don't say the same thing than they don't mean what you think they mean.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 2 Cor 13:1

Changing the subject about the use of the name shows your inability to provide scripture on the topic. Our opinion means nothing if it is not backed up by the Word.

By the way, do you know how were Cornelius and others baptized? "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" Acts 10:48

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

1ofthem said:

The point is that Jesus said to baptize in a name not titles. The forerunners of the Roman Catholic Church started to use the phrase I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in 325 a.d. The bible gives a clear record of how the apostles baptized. It was consistently done in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Consider the following:
“O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” John 17:25-26 (Father)

“And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” Colossians 3:17 (Son)

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26 (Holy Ghost)

Wansvic · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

Jesus meant that a name was to be used. Use of the phrase expresses that one is baptized in titles not a name. This is crucial because of the following scriptures as well:

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 2:38
...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

bluto · Sep 19, 2019

Wansvic said:

There you go again, making more excuses and taking verses out of context. 2 Corinthians 13:1 has to do with matters of church discipline. The Apostle Paul is quoting Jesus at Matthew 18:16, "But if he does not listen take one or two more with you, so that "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."

Secondly, if what you say about these so-called witnesses are needed to veryfy water baptism can you please point to anywhere in the NT that states who can and who cannot water baptize somebody? Suppose I'm "discipling" someone as Paul states to Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:2, "And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to FAITHFUL men, WHO WILL BE ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS."

And were in my backyard and we pray and he comes to Christ. I then say to him, how about I water baptize you in my pool and he agrees. Does it matter that there were no witnesses? Is he saved and does his baptism count even though I'm a layman? See wansvic, you don't "THINK" for yourself. You just react with more excuses just like the oneness pentecostal cult who don't think either, instead they follow the party line.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

tanakh · Sep 19, 2019

Lillywolf said:

No, not once have I wondered.
The thief openly said to our Lord he knew who he was, and demonstrated faith in him when the thief asked Jesus to remember him in paradise.
He entered into the covenant as we are all told is simple enough. By faith.
God chose us in his son, in the covenant of grace, before he created this world where his adversary prowls like unto a hungry lion and seeking souls to devour. We come to faith , our consciousness arrives at re-cognizing we are within and of God, as are all things created of, by, and for his purpose, will, and glory.

The thief to the other side of Jesus was not called and remained obstinate as he mocked Christ and his compatriot on the other cross. It is a three fold proof of salvation, belief, and disbelief and what transpires. Flesh to the ground from whence it came , while the soul given by God returns to the creator from whence it came. The other thief? Is the dead that know nothing. And yet, all came from God and so unto God all doth return. There can be no other place than the one from whence all things were created to be and not to be.

Check out the story of Joseph

Nehemiah6 · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

This is true for all cults. They have indoctrinated and brainwashed their adherents to the point that none are willing to independently study the Bible and see for themselves what is right and what is not. To that degree Roman Catholics and Calvinists fall into the same trap (as do many other groups). As a result you could throw scores of Scriptures their way, but they would have absolutely no impact.

The danger for everyone is WILFUL BLINDNESS. When God shows us the truth in His Word, He expects up to believe it unreservedly. But the minute we choose to become willfully blind, He withholds more light from us. And that is why Jesus gave us this solemn warning: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (Matthew 13:12).

Then He went on to say: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

1ofthem · Sep 19, 2019

Wansvic said:

I still don't get it...or why it matters?

Why did Jesus say to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then?

Don't they all three work together as one? So what does it matter if you just say Jesus or Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Seeing I was Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, do you think my baptism is null or void? That's what I don't understand.

That's what I'd like to understand.

bluto · Sep 19, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

I couldn't agree more. Look what Jesus says at Matthew23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE UNWILLING."

The other thing to consider is the fact that people's pride gets in the way where they become unteachable. They get to a point where they are so close minded they would not even consider changing their position on an issue. I've been a Christian 57 years now and over the years I've changed my position on issues numerous times. There is nothing wrong in considering other positions by prayer and asking God to give you understanding and guidance.

You hear people say, "I don't need teachers, scholars or even commentaries, I have the Holy Spirit to teach me." If this we true then there would be no need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church which btw includes teachers and Pastors etc. and Scholars that are expert in languages. Anyway, I don't mean to be "preachy." Just sharing from experience. I'm ex-military from the Vietnam war and I believe it was the Marines that coined the phrase, "Adapt, overcome, improvise." Or mabe that was Clint Eastwood?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

bluto · Sep 19, 2019

1ofthem said:

Here, let me explain what's going on. wansvic here says that a person is saved by putting their faith in Jesus Christ BUT you also HAVE to be water baptized as well to be saved. In other words, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ and are NOT water baptized your not saved.

I (and others say) your saved when you put your faith in Jesus Christ and you are "commnaded" to get water baptized but if you can't get water baptized a person is still saved. What wansvic is doing is adding water baptisim to saving faith and water baptism is a work.

It goes against Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. vs9, "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, THAT ONE SHOULD BOAST." It could not be more clear. And one of the points I have been trying to get across to wansvic is what happens to a person who puts their faith in Jesus Christ and it is impossible for them to get baptized under a million conditions like for example they are bed-ridden.

So, what is your understanding 1ofthem?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Guojing · Sep 19, 2019

bluto said:

Here, let me explain what's going on. wansvic here says that a person is saved by putting their faith in Jesus Christ BUT you also HAVE to be water baptized as well to be saved. In other words, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ and are NOT water baptized your not saved.

I (and others say) your saved when you put your faith in Jesus Christ and you are "commnaded" to get water baptized but if you can't get water baptized a person is still saved. What wansvic is doing is adding water baptisim to saving faith and water baptism is a work.

It goes against Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. vs9, "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, THAT ONE SHOULD BOAST." It could not be more clear. And one of the points I have been trying to get across to wansvic is what happens to a person who puts their faith in Jesus Christ and it is impossible for them to get baptized under a million conditions like for example they are bed-ridden.

So, what is your understanding 1ofthem?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This discussion thread is a very good illustration of the need to rightly divide the word.

If not, you will read instructions to the Jews as to the gentiles too. Confusion will then reign

bluto · Sep 19, 2019

1ofthem said:

Yes, according to wansvic here, your baptism does not count. According to here and her church you "HAVE" to be water baptized in the name of Jesus only. Matthew 28:19 don't count so your not truly saved according to her view.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

oldethennew · Sep 19, 2019

oh my yes, confusion does indeed reign!

may all who Love and Serve and Follow Christ's example'
rest in His Holy Peace...

Thief on the Cross

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