Is Salvation by Jesus alone the only way to heaven?

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Is Salvation by Jesus alone the only way to heaven?

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    30

Whispered

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You do not concur that the scripture says what I think it does, because you are conferring with the wrong version of the bible and other writings of men's interpretations.
We do not have the autographs of holy writ. Therefore, it may be said that all Bibles are the writings of men's translations.
That is no pardon to claim the faith OF Christ saves.
The KJV says this? But the Greek , when the New Testament was originally written in Greek, does not.

There is another factor that simply defeats that claim that the faith OF Jesus saves us. However, that is based on one condition first.
If you believe Jesus is God and therefore omniscient, you cannot believe that Jesus , God, has faith.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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We do not have the autographs of holy writ. Therefore, it may be said that all Bibles are the writings of men's translations.
That is no pardon to claim the faith OF Christ saves.
The KJV says this? But the Greek , when the New Testament was originally written in Greek, does not.

There is another factor that simply defeats that claim that the faith OF Jesus saves us. However, that is based on one condition first.
If you believe Jesus is God and therefore omniscient, you cannot believe that Jesus , God, has faith.
Was not Jesus "faithful" to God in submitting himself to the cross, even though he ask God to let this cup pass from me? Did not Jesus make the people Just by his death on the cross?
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
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what does "through Jesus" mean? how do you know Muslims are not "through Jesus"?

if Muslims go to hell, what exactly are they being punished for?
Muslims or any other belief system do not accept Christ as the Son of God.. Salvation comes only "through Jesus", so when a person rejects Christ as the only begotten Son of God, they also rejects his sacrifice, and there is no remission of sin except through Christ. Therefore, Muslims go to hell because they are guilty of sin.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Muslims or any other belief system do not accept Christ as the Son of God.. Salvation comes only "through Jesus", so when a person rejects Christ as the only begotten Son of God, they also rejects his sacrifice, and there is no remission of sin except through Christ. Therefore, Muslims go to hell because they are guilty of sin.
Based upon John 6:38, I see the sacrifice that Jesus made different than you do. His sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. He only died for those that God gave him, and secured them all for eternal life, according to John 6:38. We were all guilty of sin and God, by his foreknowledge, saw that none of us would seek him, so we were all just like the Muslims Psalms 53:2. before he gave us a new heart and life.
 

Whispered

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Maybe this will help. What one member is arguing concerning the phrase, pistis.
4102. pistis pis'-tis from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.


The debate concerning this unique phrase found in the Saint Apostle Paul's Galatians 2 text believe it or not has raged for centuries between scholars and laity alike. Is it then any wonder we've been led to argue this all these many pages and to no avail of one side conceding to the other?
Some believe this was an error in the transcribers part converting Paul's Greek textual letter to the church in Galatia into English.
I would agree in that when our Lord Christ was God Almighty, who is eternally knowing, God would not at all have faith in Himself. Because God predestined all things to occur in the Salvation principle according to His divine will by the free gift of His grace upon the world.

Pistis christou then is what is referred to in the grammatical frame of the passage the Objective Genitive meaning.
The objective genitive means Pistis, (faith) with Christou, is to be understood as faith in Jesus Christ.

Consider the question here:
The question
I have come across an interesting translation of the Bible that Dallas Seminary produced. It is online, and it is called NET Bible. I was wondering if you would agree with how they translated Galatians 2:16: “… by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ” (other verses translated the same way are Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:22, 26; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Philippians 3:9). I … think this is extremely thought provoking, if their translation is correct. If you have time I would love to know your thoughts on this!​
Response

I own a print copy of the First Beta edition of the NET Bible. The interpretative notes in the NET Bible at this point are undoubtedly the work of NT Professor Daniel Wallace. His Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics takes precisely the same view, and indeed with precisely the same wording much of the time.


The Greek word at issue is pistis, a noun, which occurs more than 200 times in the Greek NT. Depending on the context and how it is used, it can mean “faith” or “faithfulness” (for example, in the list of the “fruit of the Spirit” in Galatians 6, is it “faith” or “faithfulness”? A case can be made for either meaning there).


After considering Wallace’s arguments, and examining every passage where pistis is used in the Greek NT, I must strongly disagree with the NET and Wallace’s interpretation at this point and rather side with the most widespread understanding of all these passages among grammatically-minded commentators—namely, that the use of the genitive in these passages is what grammarians call an “objective genitive.” The objective genitive means it is faith in Jesus Christ.


Faith in Christ, with Him as faith’s object, is presented as the effective means of securing salvation throughout the NT, and is taught beyond question in numerous NT passages which do not involve the issue of the force and meaning of the genitive case. For example: John 3:16; Acts 16:31, 20:21, 24:24, etc., and especially Galatians 3:26, which is in the same general context as Galatians 2:16 (see also Eph. 1:15). In Galatians 3:26 pistis is in the dative case where no other interpretation but “faith in Jesus Christ” is possible.


I cannot recall any place in Scripture where it is unambiguously stated that we are saved because of Christ’s faithfulness to us; the emphasis is always on our faith in/directed toward Him. The alternate view Wallace champions, a so-called subjective genitive (“the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”), is more novel than convincing. This view is rejected by such notable NT scholars as F. F. Bruce in his commentary on Galatians at 2:16 (I could heap up quotations and citations from grammarians and commentators who agree with Bruce, but let me simply say, it is a very strong majority). Christ is the object of our faith, and it is our faith-in/commitment-to Him that is the means of securing salvation.


In the NT, when “faithfulness” is spoken of with reference to Divine Persons, it seems to regularly refer to God the Father: “but God is faithful, who will not let you be tempted” (I Cor. 10:13), “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and justice to forgive” (I John 1:9). See also Romans 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 1:18 and others. Here, the Greek word translated “faithful” is pistos, an adjective related to the noun pistis. In Revelation 1:5 and 3:14, Jesus is called “the faithful witness,” specifying that the realm of His faithfulness there under consideration is as a witness. His soteriological work is not directly in view.


I find in checking just now, Mark 11:22, where “have faith,” literally, “of God” must be an objective genitive—“faith in God.” It would be absurd to speak of “having God’s faithfulness” in this context. Likewise, in Revelation 14:12 the term must be understood as “faith in Jesus Christ” (objective genitive).


While Christ is, of course, perfectly faithful to us, that is not the topic under consideration in the passages noted in NET. Having just now examined every verse in the NT where pistis (faith) and pistos (faithful) occur, I think the “faithfulness” interpretation put forth by Wallace and the NET Bible is without any justification at all.


Doug Kutilek is the editor of www.kjvonly.org, a website dedicated to exposing and refuting the many errors of KJVOism and has been researching and writing in the area of Bible texts and versions for more than 35 years. He has a BA in Bible from Baptist Bible College (Springfield, MO), an MA in Hebrew Bible from Hebrew Union College (Cincinnati; and completed all requirements for a PhD except the dissertation); and a ThM in Bible exposition from Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). His writings have appeared in numerous publications including The Biblical Evangelist, The Baptist Bible Tribune, The Baptist Preacher’s Journal, Frontline, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society and The Wichita Eagle. The father of four grown children and four granddaughters, he resides with his wife Naomi near Wichita, Kansas.



Maybe now we can move forward in this discussion. :) We know it is folly to try to change each other's mind as to what we hold in faith, right?
God does not hold faith in us. He created us as an Omniscient Father Creator.
God is the object of Faith. Not the Object that holds faith in Himself. That would be silly. I'm God and I believe in me. :cool: And you should too. Here, meet me as Jesus and believe in me because I do too.


See how odd that sounds if we boil that centuries old argument over the Greek Pistis Christou into terms we can understand?
 

Deade

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Now you are conflating two different points.
Jesus was Omniscient God.
Wait, wait, hold on. Jesus gave that omniscience up when He took on flesh.

Heb. 2:16, 17 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

But now He has gotten it back.

1 Peter 3:22 "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
 

Whispered

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Wait, wait, hold on. Jesus gave that omniscience up when He took on flesh.
Heb. 2:16, 17 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."


John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

But now He has gotten it back.

1 Peter 3:22 "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
God gave up Omniscience when He became Jesus?

The Book of Matthew chapter 28 verses 18 thru 20 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

The Book of John chapter 1 verse 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Book of Matthew chapter 1 verse 23

“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

Our Lord was fully human and fully divine.
This is how the people to whom He intended to deliver the message of Salvation were able to receive it. By listening to Jesus minister that good news. However, Jesus was also divine and bore also His miraculous Godly powers that allowed him to heal the blind, heal the leper, cast out demons and raise the dead.

If Jesus did not possess Omniscience then how did Jesus know Judas was going to betray him prior to Judas leaving the upper room? When Judas was there for what has become known as the Communion supper, Jesus later told him to go and do what he must do. And it was then that Judas departed so as to turn Jesus over to the authorities.

Jesus was Omniscient because Jesus was God. He lost none of His Godly qualities being Human because Godly power and authority bore The Word unto life in the world.


Jesus Omniscience is demonstrated in these verses. You can seek out such verses in any Bible reference search engine.

The Book of John chapter 1 verse 48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."

More Verses
Those are just 9 such passages that report of Jesus Omniscience.
There are many others. GOOGLE search criteria, verses about Jesus omniscience
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Maybe this will help. What one member is arguing concerning the phrase, pistis.
4102. pistis pis'-tis from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.


The debate concerning this unique phrase found in the Saint Apostle Paul's Galatians 2 text believe it or not has raged for centuries between scholars and laity alike. Is it then any wonder we've been led to argue this all these many pages and to no avail of one side conceding to the other?
Some believe this was an error in the transcribers part converting Paul's Greek textual letter to the church in Galatia into English.
I would agree in that when our Lord Christ was God Almighty, who is eternally knowing, God would not at all have faith in Himself. Because God predestined all things to occur in the Salvation principle according to His divine will by the free gift of His grace upon the world.

Pistis christou then is what is referred to in the grammatical frame of the passage the Objective Genitive meaning.
The objective genitive means Pistis, (faith) with Christou, is to be understood as faith in Jesus Christ.

Consider the question here:
The question
I have come across an interesting translation of the Bible that Dallas Seminary produced. It is online, and it is called NET Bible. I was wondering if you would agree with how they translated Galatians 2:16: “… by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ” (other verses translated the same way are Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:22, 26; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Philippians 3:9). I … think this is extremely thought provoking, if their translation is correct. If you have time I would love to know your thoughts on this!​
Response

I own a print copy of the First Beta edition of the NET Bible. The interpretative notes in the NET Bible at this point are undoubtedly the work of NT Professor Daniel Wallace. His Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics takes precisely the same view, and indeed with precisely the same wording much of the time.


The Greek word at issue is pistis, a noun, which occurs more than 200 times in the Greek NT. Depending on the context and how it is used, it can mean “faith” or “faithfulness” (for example, in the list of the “fruit of the Spirit” in Galatians 6, is it “faith” or “faithfulness”? A case can be made for either meaning there).


After considering Wallace’s arguments, and examining every passage where pistis is used in the Greek NT, I must strongly disagree with the NET and Wallace’s interpretation at this point and rather side with the most widespread understanding of all these passages among grammatically-minded commentators—namely, that the use of the genitive in these passages is what grammarians call an “objective genitive.” The objective genitive means it is faith in Jesus Christ.


Faith in Christ, with Him as faith’s object, is presented as the effective means of securing salvation throughout the NT, and is taught beyond question in numerous NT passages which do not involve the issue of the force and meaning of the genitive case. For example: John 3:16; Acts 16:31, 20:21, 24:24, etc., and especially Galatians 3:26, which is in the same general context as Galatians 2:16 (see also Eph. 1:15). In Galatians 3:26 pistis is in the dative case where no other interpretation but “faith in Jesus Christ” is possible.


I cannot recall any place in Scripture where it is unambiguously stated that we are saved because of Christ’s faithfulness to us; the emphasis is always on our faith in/directed toward Him. The alternate view Wallace champions, a so-called subjective genitive (“the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”), is more novel than convincing. This view is rejected by such notable NT scholars as F. F. Bruce in his commentary on Galatians at 2:16 (I could heap up quotations and citations from grammarians and commentators who agree with Bruce, but let me simply say, it is a very strong majority). Christ is the object of our faith, and it is our faith-in/commitment-to Him that is the means of securing salvation.


In the NT, when “faithfulness” is spoken of with reference to Divine Persons, it seems to regularly refer to God the Father: “but God is faithful, who will not let you be tempted” (I Cor. 10:13), “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and justice to forgive” (I John 1:9). See also Romans 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 1:18 and others. Here, the Greek word translated “faithful” is pistos, an adjective related to the noun pistis. In Revelation 1:5 and 3:14, Jesus is called “the faithful witness,” specifying that the realm of His faithfulness there under consideration is as a witness. His soteriological work is not directly in view.


I find in checking just now, Mark 11:22, where “have faith,” literally, “of God” must be an objective genitive—“faith in God.” It would be absurd to speak of “having God’s faithfulness” in this context. Likewise, in Revelation 14:12 the term must be understood as “faith in Jesus Christ” (objective genitive).


While Christ is, of course, perfectly faithful to us, that is not the topic under consideration in the passages noted in NET. Having just now examined every verse in the NT where pistis (faith) and pistos (faithful) occur, I think the “faithfulness” interpretation put forth by Wallace and the NET Bible is without any justification at all.


Doug Kutilek is the editor of www.kjvonly.org, a website dedicated to exposing and refuting the many errors of KJVOism and has been researching and writing in the area of Bible texts and versions for more than 35 years. He has a BA in Bible from Baptist Bible College (Springfield, MO), an MA in Hebrew Bible from Hebrew Union College (Cincinnati; and completed all requirements for a PhD except the dissertation); and a ThM in Bible exposition from Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). His writings have appeared in numerous publications including The Biblical Evangelist, The Baptist Bible Tribune, The Baptist Preacher’s Journal, Frontline, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society and The Wichita Eagle. The father of four grown children and four granddaughters, he resides with his wife Naomi near Wichita, Kansas.



Maybe now we can move forward in this discussion. :) We know it is folly to try to change each other's mind as to what we hold in faith, right?
God does not hold faith in us. He created us as an Omniscient Father Creator.
God is the object of Faith. Not the Object that holds faith in Himself. That would be silly. I'm God and I believe in me. :cool: And you should too. Here, meet me as Jesus and believe in me because I do too.


See how odd that sounds if we boil that centuries old argument over the Greek Pistis Christou into terms we can understand?
I have found when comparing the KJV with other versions of the bible, to be the one that gives all credit to God and his Son for man's eternal salvation, and gives zero credit to the efforts of man obtaining eternal salvation by his own efforts. I believe the men who pinned the original Greek manuscripts were inspired by God in their writings, and that all of their writings will perfectly harmonize with each other and is the only source that we should use in searching to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes; even so, Father, for so. it seemed good in thy sight. I believe the scriptures to teach that none of us can understand the truth that is in the scriptures, until the indwelling Holy Ghost reveals them unto us, it also teaches that he will not reveal them to us until we have denied ourselves (from trusting in our own intelligence). I, personally, do not confer to other peoples interpretation of the scriptures, and that scripture proves scripture.











greek
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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Maybe this will help. What one member is arguing concerning the phrase, pistis.
4102. pistis pis'-tis from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.


The debate concerning this unique phrase found in the Saint Apostle Paul's Galatians 2 text believe it or not has raged for centuries between scholars and laity alike. Is it then any wonder we've been led to argue this all these many pages and to no avail of one side conceding to the other?
Some believe this was an error in the transcribers part converting Paul's Greek textual letter to the church in Galatia into English.
I would agree in that when our Lord Christ was God Almighty, who is eternally knowing, God would not at all have faith in Himself. Because God predestined all things to occur in the Salvation principle according to His divine will by the free gift of His grace upon the world.

Pistis christou then is what is referred to in the grammatical frame of the passage the Objective Genitive meaning.
The objective genitive means Pistis, (faith) with Christou, is to be understood as faith in Jesus Christ.

Consider the question here:
The question
I have come across an interesting translation of the Bible that Dallas Seminary produced. It is online, and it is called NET Bible. I was wondering if you would agree with how they translated Galatians 2:16: “… by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ” (other verses translated the same way are Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:22, 26; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Philippians 3:9). I … think this is extremely thought provoking, if their translation is correct. If you have time I would love to know your thoughts on this!​
Response

I own a print copy of the First Beta edition of the NET Bible. The interpretative notes in the NET Bible at this point are undoubtedly the work of NT Professor Daniel Wallace. His Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics takes precisely the same view, and indeed with precisely the same wording much of the time.


The Greek word at issue is pistis, a noun, which occurs more than 200 times in the Greek NT. Depending on the context and how it is used, it can mean “faith” or “faithfulness” (for example, in the list of the “fruit of the Spirit” in Galatians 6, is it “faith” or “faithfulness”? A case can be made for either meaning there).


After considering Wallace’s arguments, and examining every passage where pistis is used in the Greek NT, I must strongly disagree with the NET and Wallace’s interpretation at this point and rather side with the most widespread understanding of all these passages among grammatically-minded commentators—namely, that the use of the genitive in these passages is what grammarians call an “objective genitive.” The objective genitive means it is faith in Jesus Christ.


Faith in Christ, with Him as faith’s object, is presented as the effective means of securing salvation throughout the NT, and is taught beyond question in numerous NT passages which do not involve the issue of the force and meaning of the genitive case. For example: John 3:16; Acts 16:31, 20:21, 24:24, etc., and especially Galatians 3:26, which is in the same general context as Galatians 2:16 (see also Eph. 1:15). In Galatians 3:26 pistis is in the dative case where no other interpretation but “faith in Jesus Christ” is possible.


I cannot recall any place in Scripture where it is unambiguously stated that we are saved because of Christ’s faithfulness to us; the emphasis is always on our faith in/directed toward Him. The alternate view Wallace champions, a so-called subjective genitive (“the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”), is more novel than convincing. This view is rejected by such notable NT scholars as F. F. Bruce in his commentary on Galatians at 2:16 (I could heap up quotations and citations from grammarians and commentators who agree with Bruce, but let me simply say, it is a very strong majority). Christ is the object of our faith, and it is our faith-in/commitment-to Him that is the means of securing salvation.


In the NT, when “faithfulness” is spoken of with reference to Divine Persons, it seems to regularly refer to God the Father: “but God is faithful, who will not let you be tempted” (I Cor. 10:13), “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and justice to forgive” (I John 1:9). See also Romans 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 1:18 and others. Here, the Greek word translated “faithful” is pistos, an adjective related to the noun pistis. In Revelation 1:5 and 3:14, Jesus is called “the faithful witness,” specifying that the realm of His faithfulness there under consideration is as a witness. His soteriological work is not directly in view.


I find in checking just now, Mark 11:22, where “have faith,” literally, “of God” must be an objective genitive—“faith in God.” It would be absurd to speak of “having God’s faithfulness” in this context. Likewise, in Revelation 14:12 the term must be understood as “faith in Jesus Christ” (objective genitive).


While Christ is, of course, perfectly faithful to us, that is not the topic under consideration in the passages noted in NET. Having just now examined every verse in the NT where pistis (faith) and pistos (faithful) occur, I think the “faithfulness” interpretation put forth by Wallace and the NET Bible is without any justification at all.


Doug Kutilek is the editor of www.kjvonly.org, a website dedicated to exposing and refuting the many errors of KJVOism and has been researching and writing in the area of Bible texts and versions for more than 35 years. He has a BA in Bible from Baptist Bible College (Springfield, MO), an MA in Hebrew Bible from Hebrew Union College (Cincinnati; and completed all requirements for a PhD except the dissertation); and a ThM in Bible exposition from Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). His writings have appeared in numerous publications including The Biblical Evangelist, The Baptist Bible Tribune, The Baptist Preacher’s Journal, Frontline, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society and The Wichita Eagle. The father of four grown children and four granddaughters, he resides with his wife Naomi near Wichita, Kansas.



Maybe now we can move forward in this discussion. :) We know it is folly to try to change each other's mind as to what we hold in faith, right?
God does not hold faith in us. He created us as an Omniscient Father Creator.
God is the object of Faith. Not the Object that holds faith in Himself. That would be silly. I'm God and I believe in me. :cool: And you should too. Here, meet me as Jesus and believe in me because I do too.


See how odd that sounds if we boil that centuries old argument over the Greek Pistis Christou into terms we can understand?
I have no problem that Jesus is omniscient.
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
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"The promised land" is not heaven, although it is a type and shadow of heaven. If you are of the understanding that those of Israel who were not allowed to go into the promised land are not going to heaven, then I think that you may have a misunderstanding of the scriptures. God changes not. I do not use commentaries. Scripture proves scripture.
No I do not misunderstand Scripture. I am arguing age of accountability; most say 13, or from birth, but this is Scriptural evidence at what age God holds people accountable for sin. Maybe you are misunderstand the Scriptures.?.
 

Whispered

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I have found when comparing the KJV with other versions of the bible, to be the one that gives all credit to God and his Son for man's eternal salvation, and gives zero credit to the efforts of man obtaining eternal salvation by his own efforts. I believe the men who pinned the original Greek manuscripts were inspired by God in their writings, and that all of their writings will perfectly harmonize with each other and is the only source that we should use in searching to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes; even so, Father, for so. it seemed good in thy sight. I believe the scriptures to teach that none of us can understand the truth that is in the scriptures, until the indwelling Holy Ghost reveals them unto us, it also teaches that he will not reveal them to us until we have denied ourselves (from trusting in our own intelligence). I, personally, do not confer to other peoples interpretation of the scriptures, and that scripture proves scripture.










greek
Your post contradicts what you've stated prior concerning Galatians 2.
You do not confer to other peoples interpretation of the scriptures is also disingenuous. All Bible versions are translations that are interpretations ultimately of the prior text being translated.
I think you dislike that you're idea that Jesus holds faith is not tenable when Jesus is Omniscient. Which you now, contrary to prior posts, concede you have no problem with.

Galatians 2 speaks for itself in context of the entire chapter if one reads it with the clear view that God , who was Christ, is all knowing. God does not hold faith. God is that which is held in faith.


The Book of Galatians chapter 2
2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

Verse 16 is not making the statement referring in any way to Jesus having faith. The faith of Jesus Christ was Christianity before followers of The Way became known as Christians in Antioch. The faith of Jesus Christ was rightly described as those holding the faith of Jesus Christ, who taught The Way of Saving faith.

And I have answered the questions that were relevant to our discussion on this subject.
 

ForestGreenCook

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No I do not misunderstand Scripture. I am arguing age of accountability; most say 13, or from birth, but this is Scriptural evidence at what age God holds people accountable for sin. Maybe you are misunderstand the Scriptures.?.
There is no such thing as "the age of accountability" when it is intended to describe when a person is eligible to be born again. The child is born again in the same manner that an adult is and that is explained in Eph 2.
 

Whispered

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No I do not misunderstand Scripture. I am arguing age of accountability; most say 13, or from birth, but this is Scriptural evidence at what age God holds people accountable for sin. Maybe you are misunderstand the Scriptures.?.
There are no scriptures that I know of that precisely pinpoint an age when we are to be held accountable for wilful sin.
It isn't something like, when a child enters their 8th year their sins are appointed to be counted against them, type thing.

Of course there can be denominational teachings that make the claim that infants can sin. But that's not the point of your query.

I believe that when God's word describes sin as, "to miss the mark" that the accountable age wherein our choices can be considered sin in God's eyes and thus held against us occurs when we are able to fully comprehend the formula of obedience and disobedience, right and wrong, and the consequences as pertains to our choices in those areas. Neither infants nor newborns possess that capacity.
 

Dan58

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Based upon John 6:38, I see the sacrifice that Jesus made different than you do. His sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. He only died for those that God gave him, and secured them all for eternal life, according to John 6:38. We were all guilty of sin and God, by his foreknowledge, saw that none of us would seek him, so we were all just like the Muslims Psalms 53:2. before he gave us a new heart and life.
His sacrifice was to God for the remission of sin, but not his sin (he had none), but for all the sins of those who believed in him. And God through foreknowledge did not see that none would seek him, because many did and still do. Of course Muslims can convert, but my point was simply that all who reject Christ will perish in sin.
 

ForestGreenCook

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His sacrifice was to God for the remission of sin, but not his sin (he had none), but for all the sins of those who believed in him. And God through foreknowledge did not see that none would seek him, because many did and still do. Of course Muslims can convert, but my point was simply that all who reject Christ will perish in sin.
You, evidently, are not taking into consideration that all scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. God's foreknowledge was that he saw that no one would seek him. You cannot just ignore Psalms 53:2.
 

Whispered

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His sacrifice was to God for the remission of sin, but not his sin (he had none), but for all the sins of those who believed in him. And God through foreknowledge did not see that none would seek him, because many did and still do. Of course Muslims can convert, but my point was simply that all who reject Christ will perish in sin.
True.
FGC keeps insisting on a forumla they've created of their own doing. It actually does not exist in the true context of scripture.
If we take the preceding scripture in the Book of John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, and then read the Book of John chapter 6 and verse 38, ESV: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."

We then see that those two scriptures from just the Book of John chapter 6 , when we've read FGC repeatedly insist Jesus died only for those God gave to Him, when that claim indicates overlooking the fact that Jesus was God, we see that John 3:16 refutes what is claimed to be said by FGC reading just verse 38.

For FGC's claim to be true we would have to concede, as he must when he repeatedly insists on his formula for verse 38's application, that God also created people whom He would damn to Hell when those persons are not the one's Jesus was sent to die for.
The doctrine of FGC is flawed.