Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

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Mar 28, 2016
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The meaning of words in the Bible can differ based on the context. In the case of creation of Adam, when God breathed His spirit into Adam's body he became a "living soul". Departure of the ghost from the body suggest reversal of this process. In this context, soul suggests something along the lines of "living/sentient component within a physical body".
However, "fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell", suggests different meaning for "soul" since the context tells us the body is dead, so here meaning of the soul more along the lines of "invisible, spiritual component of a human being".
"The soul that sins shall die" or " that soul shall be cut off from his people" suggests yet another meaning for soul - more along the lines of "an individual".

Especially in the light of the last, the Bible does tell us what is annihilated: their NAMES (identities) are blotted out (obliterated) from the book of life. To reinforce this point, the believers are said to receive a new name (new identity) in Jesus Christ! I believe this is one of the main informations that we have for the second death vs the second resurrection. I do not understand how exactly will this play out, maybe I will in time.

As a response to your post quoted below, soul or spirit likely do not belong to the empirical matter/energy realm where everything is lossless and just changes shape, so to say. Being is caused by the breath of the Spirit of God and God (unlike matter-energy world) who is an absolute being in whom we also have our being, cannot be empirically tamed for observation and measurement. I'd think you would concur that God is Spirit, who is above mere energy.

As to the matter, the body is said to be destroyed by decomposition, as long as the Bible is concerned "the dust (physical body that Spirit was breathed into) returns into dust (decomposes)", so this doesn't contradict science. Again, although the word annihilate has "nihil"/"nothing" in it, the word itself doesn't actually suggest something turning into nothing, but destruction. However, "blotting one out" does strongly suggest erasure.
The first death is the death we all suffer is the death of a body and spirit . The second death is the instrument of death the letter of the law .In the new heavens and earth the letter of the law will not rise and condemn a whole creation.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The blotting out is the book of life are the names of all he intended to create. When compared to the lambs book of life the new creation and no name was there it would be just as if they never existed as a way of blotting out .

Those who rise to new spirit life. Their memory of the things done under the sun will not be remembered or ever come to mind. The old creation will be like it was never here. Here today, gone not to be remembered tomorrow.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I think parable is a misnomer, and this is the main cause for people arguing about this. Parable would mean that this is an analogy with some hidden meaning describing something else. But this story is still about what it says it's about - what happens to people when they die. Even though it's presenting spiritual things through physical language (separation of the wicked and the righteous accurately described as unbridgeable chasm). Spiritual things are invisible, so had to be explained in physical language, but they are truly there and exist. I wouldn't exclude Lazarus having been a real person too. Why not? He could have been simultaneously a real person and a type (for the poor, in beatitudes sense) because God did it on many places in the Bible: Boaz was a real historical person yet also a type (redeemer), Moses and Elijah were real persons yet also types (the law and the prophets)… Why not Lazarus also?
There is value in seeing the named people as types :) Moses and Elijah also both appeared at the transfiguration but neither one of them was really there, for it was a vision, and many generally accept it as a teaching on Jesus fulfilling the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah), of Moses and Elijah being types and shadows that are superseded by Jesus. I think the reason why Lazarus and the rich man story is contested as a parable/teaching showing something of spiritual import is because it is one of very few places where the dead are shown to have awareness and suffer as a consequence of not choosing God... whereas elsewhere in Scripture the dead are said to know nothing. The fact remains that a plethora of Scriptures attest to the fact that the dead perish, they are destroyed. The story clearly illustrates that the choices we make in this life have eternal consequences, and the most important choice we make is whether or not we choose to believe in and follow God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Why are people so attached to the idea of God cruelly punishing people forever after in conscious eternal torment? I do not have an answer for that.
 

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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There is value in seeing the named people as types :) Moses and Elijah also both appeared at the transfiguration but neither one of them was really there, for it was a vision, and many generally accept it as a teaching on Jesus fulfilling the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah), of Moses and Elijah being types and shadows that are superseded by Jesus. I think the reason why Lazarus and the rich man story is contested as a parable/teaching showing something of spiritual import is because it is one of very few places where the dead are shown to have awareness and suffer as a consequence of not choosing God... whereas elsewhere in Scripture the dead are said to know nothing. The fact remains that a plethora of Scriptures attest to the fact that the dead perish, they are destroyed. The story clearly illustrates that the choices we make in this life have eternal consequences, and the most important choice we make is whether or not we choose to believe in and follow God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Why are people so attached to the idea of God cruelly punishing people forever after in conscious eternal torment? I do not have an answer for that.
I am among the folks who love to take things spiritually, but I don't feel like I'm on a safe ground 100% yet with that story... You know that moment when the Scriptures "click" together and your spirit just KNOWS the truth. I don't yet have that feeling about this story, so I won't rush it... always appreciate you sharing your insights though... at this point it seems like it's down to everybody's interpretation and I don't like that, it brings us nowhere further in discussion. Since we discuss what happens to people after they die - let's cut the Gordian knot, either way we take it, literally or typically, it tells us what happens with people when they die, and this is the point of agreement.

We do see something interesting in Psalms, that I'd like to bring up though.
God is addressed as "Jacob":

Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

The verses 3-5 speak about the Messiah. Then the verse 6 point again at the "God of salvation" - "this is the generation of them that seek HIM, that seek THY FACE, O JACOB."
Do they seek the face of Jacob their mortal ancestor, or do they seek the face of God of salvation?

This has some weight considering Abraham in the story about Lazarus.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I am among the folks who love to take things spiritually, but I don't feel like I'm on a safe ground 100% yet with that story... You know that moment when the Scriptures "click" together and your spirit just KNOWS the truth. I don't yet have that feeling about this story, so I won't rush it... always appreciate you sharing your insights though... at this point it seems like it's down to everybody's interpretation and I don't like that, it brings us nowhere further in discussion. Since we discuss what happens to people after they die - let's cut the Gordian knot, either way we take it, literally or typically, it tells us what happens with people when they die, and this is the point of agreement.

We do see something interesting in Psalms, that I'd like to bring up though.
God is addressed as "Jacob":

Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

The verses 3-5 speak about the Messiah. Then the verse 6 point again at the "God of salvation" - "this is the generation of them that seek HIM, that seek THY FACE, O JACOB."
Do they seek the face of Jacob their mortal ancestor, or do they seek the face of God of salvation?

This has some weight considering Abraham in the story about Lazarus.
Hello SoulWeaver :) Those who die in Christ go one place and those who die outside of Christ go another- I believe this is also a key element of the story. An unpassable chasm exists between the two, because the saved are sealed and cannot be lost, nor can the dead undo the choice to reject God they made in life. The story was also a foretelling that many of the Jews would reject their Messiah, even though He would rise from death. The Sadducees in particular did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. Even Job believed in the resurrection.
 

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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Hello SoulWeaver :) Those who die in Christ go one place and those who die outside of Christ go another- I believe this is also a key element of the story. An unpassable chasm exists between the two, because the saved are sealed and cannot be lost, nor can the dead undo the choice to reject God they made in life. The story was also a foretelling that many of the Jews would reject their Messiah, even though He would rise from death. The Sadducees in particular did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Fully in agreement...
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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@Magenta hello friend i hope its not too late for me to take my hat off and apologize for the evil things i said to you. was completely wrong and sinful. i have no good excuse for my behavior but i will try be better. i believe all happens for a reason maybe this was God saying me to work on your attitude and love to other people who you even disagree with.

i hope you agree to my apology @Magenta cant say why i was so mean over just being annoyed. it was sad to see from a man who claims to be Christian. im not against strong speech like Jesus was saying strong things but there is line of it and i cross the line and went to just heathen levels of morals.

i cant fix it and i cant make you feel better but only i can do is say that im sorry. i dont know why i get so angry maybe its physical pain i have makes me easily irritated or its lack of spiritual maturity but whatever it is i have to fix it
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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@Magenta hello friend i hope its not too late for me to take my hat off and apologize for the evil things i said to you. was completely wrong and sinful. i have no good excuse for my behavior but i will try be better. i believe all happens for a reason maybe this was God saying me to work on your attitude and love to other people who you even disagree with.

i hope you agree to my apology @Magenta cant say why i was so mean over just being annoyed. it was sad to see from a man who claims to be Christian. im not against strong speech like Jesus was saying strong things but there is line of it and i cross the line and went to just heathen levels of morals.

i cant fix it and i cant make you feel better but only i can do is say that im sorry. i dont know why i get so angry maybe its physical pain i have makes me easily irritated or its lack of spiritual maturity but whatever it is i have to fix it
Good morning Melach . Thank you for your apology; it means a lot to me that you have openly confessed to being wrong in how you spoke to me. I accept your apology and forgive you. I appreciate your sincerity, humility, and desire to do better. I realize I may have misunderstood what you meant when you were asking what the point was, and that likely added to your frustration with me. So I am sorry if I misunderstood your question, and give kudos to you and praise to God for your love of Him :) I am also sorry to hear you suffer chronic physical pain. I will put you on my prayer card at church tomorrow.
 

Magenta

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i hope @Magenta see my post if she has me on ignore can someone send that to her please
I do not have you on ignore :) I am quite impressed with how desirous you are of letting me know of your Godly sorrow :) I was also aware that you had not been on site since then and am glad to see you back. I had also momentarily confused you with another user whose user name starts with the letter "M" who posts on the NBW thread. My apologies!
 

Melach

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Good morning Melach . Thank you for your apology; it means a lot to me that you have openly confessed to being wrong in how you spoke to me. I accept your apology and forgive you. I appreciate your sincerity, humility, and desire to do better. I realize I may have misunderstood what you meant when you were asking what the point was, and that likely added to your frustration with me. So I am sorry if I misunderstood your question, and give kudos to you and praise to God for your love of Him :) I am also sorry to hear you suffer chronic physical pain. I will put you on my prayer card at church tomorrow.
thanks alot. its a burden off my heart.

this situation was proof positive that its not just about doctrines its about how you treat people.
even if i was right, by how i was acting i made myself wrong.


its not about winning debates i understand. both views are present in church history after all and its not like its a salvation issue the afterlife.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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thanks alot. its a burden off my heart.

this situation was proof positive that its not just about doctrines its about how you treat people.
even if i was right, by how i was acting i made myself wrong.


its not about winning debates i understand. both views are present in church history after all and its not like its a salvation issue the afterlife.
You are welcome :) I truly appreciate your apology. It is rather rare to receive such a sincere apology and so you have redeemed yourself and then some :D I understand well the struggle with the heart.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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You know, one big issue I have with annihilationists is that they do not glorify in the punishment of God's enemies. In fact, they seem to be sympathetic to them.

The overall focus of Scripture concerning this is that God and his people will be vindicated through the eternal punishment of the wicked, and that they will experience shame everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:1-3 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
(ESV Strong's)

I have been reading through the book of Psalms in the last year, as well as Revelation, and both accentuate how the wicked will be dealt with, and how the persecution and martyrdom of the righteous will be avenged by God. I don't really see the sympathy that many Christians waste upon those who die in a state of unbelief, after such a lifestyle.
 

Heyjude

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Sep 7, 2019
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I'm going to step up and support Magenta here (actually everyone). I posted this on another thread to the same OP but since people argued a lot no one noticed it and the OP also ignored it, never giving me feedback after asking me questions and me giving answer. There is a way to make peace between the two views, so the Scriptures agree harmoniously. And no, it is not eternal results ("eternal results" is actually a bad argument). OK. Please be patient to hear me out brothers and sisters, :)

I wouldn't call myself an "annihilationist". That might imply that I am trampling the Scriptures that talk about eternal punishment, which I don't. I do believe in annihilation as the Scriptures teach, and I also do believe punishment is going on eternally as the Scriptures teach both. I don't believe these two are in opposition, at all. The whole of the Scriptures must be true, and agree harmoniously. I'd call myself a "harmonist" if I had to pick a title. I believe that people who pit Scriptures against Scriptures are wrong. It's like Calvinists and Arminianists, who pit Scripture against Scripture and ignore the other half. As the Bible teaches "elect according to foreknowledge" this shows they are both right and both wrong, as both free will and predestination simultaneously exist as God can foresee who will choose what. I hold annihilation vs eternal torment is yet another Biblical paradox, of exactly the SAME kind.

"Eternal results" isn't a good argument, because the Scripture does say it goes on forever. But this then seems to contradict with the other Scriptures, that suggests destruction, the mortality of the soul, etc. We cannot have discord, it must all agree. This picture then occurred to me as the tree service was cutting a tree next to the house. So I thought, what if it was put into a fire?

"The tree that gives bad fruit" is cut and thrown into the fire. Right?
But if is perpetually burnt without being consumed, would that not make the bad tree like a burning bush?
(please bear with me I promise I'll make it worthwhile in a bit...)
Only God and those with God on the inside are able to burn without being consumed, because they are tried and came up gold and silver. They are filled with Holy Spirit, baptized by fire. Doesn't everything ungodly burn up and perish?
This is just to demonstrate that current understanding doesn't make perfect sense with other things we are taught by the Bible... Now, onto my main proposition:

If the new trees are thrown into the fire and you keep doing it, so the smoke keeps rising on and on, does this have to necessarily mean you are burning the same piece of wood continually? Actually, NO. It could be the process itself which is going on and on, but that first tree had long turned into smoke and perished - the thing is that the new ones are now added to the pile. Accordingly,

Nowhere does the Scripture say that the smoke will be sustained by the same persons burning. The Bible states the same CATEGORY of people (the ungodly) will forever sustain the smoke of torment. Beyond doubt... However, the Scriptures do NOT state that the same INDIVIDUAL PERSONS will be sustaining it for EVER... It ONLY specifies the category of people that is fueling it.

And I know what some of you might be thinking now.
There is a Biblical notion suggesting that existence of our planet is finite, so some might say that God would "run out of wood" at a certain point, so how could that be eternal? But that is a very temporal understanding of "eternal". God is out of space and time. The reason He's eternal is because He's neverchanging. We are limiting God with our concept of eternity, which is somehow also on a timer. A lot of Christians see eternity as if some end times timer expires at 12a.m., and then it's the "end of time" at midnight and eternity then "begins". But this is the same old linear time. Eternity is what has always been there, what is, and always will be, like God. Time has beginnings, endings, befores and afters. Eternity is called what is never changing and always the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The unchanging reality of Truth, which is in God. "Sure, I come quickly". It's not only that days are shorter for God than for us. It's that Jesus literally does come quickly. He comes quickly to our rescue, or to judge the wicked, all the time, every day, without fail! When He says behold I come quickly, He is not joking! "Quickly" REALLY means "quickly"!

If something is a part of God's nature, I would argue that it qualifies as ETERNAL. God "cannot behold evil". Evil is destroyed in His presence. It is God's eternal, timeless nature to always destroy His enemies: past, present, and future. So the punishment will be meted out eternally, yet also annihilating the enemies during the process. Furthermore, Annihilation is commanded by God in words, "you shall utterly destroy them", which is God's unchanging will for all His enemies. He does not give some enemies a special treatment. (The opposite would suggest that God is a respecter of persons.) Therefore...

God always did, does, and will annihilate His enemies, and therefore"the smoke of their torment shall rise for ever and ever"... because God never changes (if He changed, it would cause this smoke to stop rising, but it ever rises).

So this is why I now believe it is totally possible for the torment to go on forever and just like the Scriptures say, and yet annihilate also like the Scriptures suggest. My argument is NEVERCHANGING RESULTS so the results are CONTINUING FOREVER AND EVER, based on God Himself being neverchanging. The fire is not ever being quenched, either, because nothing can deliver any man from His judgments (by quenching the fire).

I honestly believe lot of the confusion Bible wise comes from us being stuck in the human timeframe and our erroneous understanding of "forever and ever" based on this timeframe. Christians are automatically imagining, in their heads, some infinitely long period of time, in which there will be burning for ever and ever (for an infinitely prolonged period of time) "after" time "ends". But "an infinitely long period of time" is not what eternity, aka forever and ever, means. And after "end time", any kind of duration "afterwards" would also be completely nonexistent in that case because if time continues then time didn't end. That would be my second argument. I might not have everything lined up 100% yet, but hey, at least I'm trying to make a more comprehensive picture so help me. We need to stop with one sided views and beating each other down with Scriptures utterly divorced from one another. Well I am posting this, so help me God.
Great post and well explained!

Matthew 25:41 mentions “everlasting fire” for the wicked and this fire does go out , so if the same meaning of the words apply for the other verses (using the words “everlasting or eternal fire”.) then they must "go out" as well as you say.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with “everlasting or eternal fire” (Jude 7) and that fire did turn these cities “into ashes” as a warning to others afterward who lived similar lives. (2 Peter 2:6)

Yet despite being named “everlasting or eternal fire” these cities are not burning today as the fire eventually went out and all was burned up. The same seems to apply to the wicked as the everlasting fire will “go out” after the wicked have been turned to ashes. (Malachi 4.3). It seems the memory or the effect of the fire was everlasting but not the actual burning.

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7)

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6)

“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts” (Malachi 4:3)


All a bit grim really just thinking about it.
 

Heyjude

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Sep 7, 2019
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Hmmm, you seemed to have left out Abraham’s name. Very interesting. And as far I as the first sentence in your second full paragraph, I approve of anything Jesus does, but I’m not suggesting that is what He did here.
I would like someone to explain this to me as well as I am not sure I get it.

Couldn't the question of the Rich Man asking Lazarus to go back and warn his brothers, be told to be a delusion from the Rich Man, seeing that he was in flames in the first place, maybe HE believed it was possible, but it didn't mean it was believed from the other side in Abrahams bosom. And why didn't he ask Abraham to go anyhow and not Lazarus - Status? It seems odd to me that Lazarus who rose from the dead in the other story of John 11, corresponds with this other Lazarus being asked to be raised from the dead in this story as well , but maybe its nothing.
 

Heyjude

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Sep 7, 2019
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You know, one big issue I have with annihilationists is that they do not glorify in the punishment of God's enemies. In fact, they seem to be sympathetic to them.

The overall focus of Scripture concerning this is that God and his people will be vindicated through the eternal punishment of the wicked, and that they will experience shame everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:1-3 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
(ESV Strong's)

I have been reading through the book of Psalms in the last year, as well as Revelation, and both accentuate how the wicked will be dealt with, and how the persecution and martyrdom of the righteous will be avenged by God. I don't really see the sympathy that many Christians waste upon those who die in a state of unbelief, after such a lifestyle.
Its a tricky one this, as I have thought about this as well. I think it isn't so much a case of having sympathy, but more the fact that after a lifetime of being told to forgive your enemies, when that's hard sometimes if they are truly wicked, then its hard to see how one can change from this compassion, to almost feel nothing when even the idea of something so dreadful is brought to mind to anyone's end seems horrific. It seems to be the extreme other spectrum of forgiveness - off the scale even.

I personally am not one who would find any satisfaction in knowing people suffer, whoever they are, so if its done for my sake, I cant imagine getting any pleasure from it (although I know some do in crime cases wanting to see the perpetrator die etc). Or maybe it is because it hard to imagine the people that are "not that bad" (not truly wicked) having something so horrific. Surely there cant be just two groups of people, good or bad. Hard to say. I even find the word "obliterate" horrific actually when used in that sense. But then if anyone was destined to be "obliterated" why does it say that for some "it would be better if they had never been born"? I still don't get it. Surely to some non believers being "obliterated" isn't much different an end to dying as they expect to anyhow, so don't see the difference. Maybe I just don't get it!