Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[wokinluv]

I think you are saying that a person has to do good works of the flesh or they wont make It In but can you give a reasonable answer to why the thief on the cross did no physical works and his faith was enough?

God looks at the heart.

God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. Acts 15:8

Without Love we are nothing.(1 Corinthians 13:1-3) and what counts is faith that is manifested in Love. (Galatians 5:6)

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:34-37

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 9:15-18

This is one of the best arguments against my point. When I was first confronted with it I told myself: "my opponents are right". But then I said: "wait a moment! How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"

The transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant didn't happen overnight, it took more than 15 years. The Jews who accepted Christ continued keeping the Law for many years.

The resurrected Christ (before the ascension) could have told His disciples that salvation thereafter would be by grace through faith, but He didn't -- it seems that God planned for a smooth transition. New converts would first learn about Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and later on they would learn about salvation by grace.

Here's your thought below which I think that it is not the scribes and pharisees who Jesus is telling them to teach the Gentiles to obey.

"How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Which of these two keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus?

Those who work at the law but don't attain to Righteousness?

Or those who DON'T work at the law but DO attain to Righteousness?


You are operating under the fallacy that those who work at the law actually keep the law. If that were the case then there would be no reason for Christianity.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Would you rather be righteous or would you rather work at the law?

Are you a Jew or a Gentile Christian? Is there a law written on your heart of flesh or was it written on a heart of stone as it was written on stone tablets for a people of "hardened as stone" hearts?

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:10-12

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:5-7

 

[Guojing]

This is one of the best arguments against my point. When I was first confronted with it I told myself: "my opponents are right". But then I said: "wait a moment! How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"


The transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant didn't happen overnight, it took more than 15 years. The Jews who accepted Christ continued keeping the Law for many years.

The resurrected Christ (before the ascension) could have told His disciples that salvation thereafter would be by grace through faith, but He didn't -- it seems that God planned for a smooth transition. New converts would first learn about Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and later on they would learn about salvation by grace.

That is why I say those churches obsessed with the great commission are really contradicting themselves. They love to use the Matthew version because it avoided the more controversial aspects of the ones in Mark and John.

But they quickly breeze thru the part on “teaching them to obey...” hoping that no one asked, “wait a minute. At no point did the ascended Christ actually told the 12 that the law of Moses have passed.”

Which is the original title of your thread in the OP 🤣

 

[Guojing]

This is one of the best arguments against my point. When I was first confronted with it I told myself: "my opponents are right". But then I said: "wait a moment! How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"


The transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant didn't happen overnight, it took more than 15 years. The Jews who accepted Christ continued keeping the Law for many years.

The resurrected Christ (before the ascension) could have told His disciples that salvation thereafter would be by grace through faith, but He didn't -- it seems that God planned for a smooth transition. New converts would first learn about Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and later on they would learn about salvation by grace.

And I realized from your discussion with FTS, about animal sacrifice, another possible scenario for your consideration.

Before the temple was destroyed in AD 70, all the Jewish believers who accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, aka the Gospel of the Kingdom, will still be sacrificing animals for their sins, throughout all of Acts.

Did the 12 ever tell them, "Wait a minute, Jesus's death on the cross means he is the true sacrifice that is required for sins. All of you must stop sacrificing animals for your sins from now on!"

If they did, would the Jewish believers have stoned them?

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Well, I think both of us are seeking the truth with sincerity.

It is to my own interest to keep Christ's words, but only those that are still effective.

The earthly Jesus taught obedience to the scribes and the Pharisees, told the disciples to sell their possessions and give alms, .... well ... to keep it short, Jesus taught obedience to the law of Moses whereas Paul said we are not under the Law.

Do you place the words of earthly Jesus above those of Paul (the words of the risen Christ)?

But you are ginoring my questions and verses.

The earth Jesus said His earthy words would never pass, that those words are the doctrine to follow and the holy SPirit would being THOSE words to rememberance:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

My view is just the opposite of yours: the words of the risen Christ supersede those of the physical Jesus.

The above verse shows that to be false doctrine.

Well the only time Jesus speaks about this post post resurrection is in the gospels and Acts:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Acts 1:6-8, " 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

If we are talking a ascended Jesus He only directly speaks in Revelation.

Jesus didn't say TEACHINGS, He said WORDS (LOGOI, the plural of LOGOS).

Matt 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

SO "His words" did not include His teachings? Seems like a way to ignore everything He said?

In the New Covenant yes, but during His walk on earth Jesus preached a different message to the Jews.

False. He said to teach what He taught:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

one of His chosen disciples say this: "the teaching of Christ, "

2 John 1:9-11, " 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

John 14:21, “he who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”

This is one of the best arguments against my point. When I was first confronted with it I told myself: "my opponents are right". But then I said: "wait a moment! How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"

The transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant didn't happen overnight, it took more than 15 years. The Jews who accepted Christ continued keeping the Law for many years.

The resurrected Christ (before the ascension) could have told His disciples that salvation thereafter would be by grace through faith, but He didn't -- it seems that God planned for a smooth transition. New converts would first learn about Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and later on they would learn about salvation by grace.

You are misrepresenting the "scribes and pharise" verse. It about following their teaching according to what the word says and not their made up nonsense.

Also you keep abolishing His words when He syas voer and over the oppisite.

and there is this post ascention:

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

But the question is what commands?

The ones that will not pass until haven and earth pass and all is fulfilled:

Matthew 5:17-20, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

heaven and earth have not passed and all is not yet accomplished/fulfilled.

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

No room in that post ran out of letters. I want to add

This is one of the best arguments against my point. When I was first confronted with it I told myself: "my opponents are right". But then I said: "wait a moment! How can we teach Gentiles to obey the scribes and the Pharisees?"


The transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant didn't happen overnight, it took more than 15 years. The Jews who accepted Christ continued keeping the Law for many years.

The resurrected Christ (before the ascension) could have told His disciples that salvation thereafter would be by grace through faith, but He didn't -- it seems that God planned for a smooth transition. New converts would first learn about Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and later on they would learn about salvation by grace.

In the new covenant His law is not abolished, it is written on the heart AND mind:

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

How can one only say

no the law is abolished!

no the law is not for me!

no no no!

when the spirit says yes yes yes:

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

 

[lightbearer]

God, context; and sentence structure. It says what it says. I notice you did not prove the points of the post wrong. Take a closer look and address the points of the post within the context of the text.

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

WHOSOEVER BREAKS THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES MEN SO SHALL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN?

The following verse starts with the word for. It is translated from the Greek word gar.

G1063 γάρ gar (ğar') conj.
(properly) assigning a reason.
{(used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles)}

In other words what follows the word for (gar) is an explanation to what was just previously stated.

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So to be called least in the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN means you shall in NO case ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

whenever you sort a list the ordering of the list from greatest to least is equivalent to the ordering from least to greatest.
in either case one creates an identical network with identical adjacencies.

The same time the disciples came unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?​

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

(Matthew 18:4) ​

​

what does this tell us?
the least humble is the least in the kingdom.
what does the least humble do?

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:14-20 KJV)

 

[NayborBear]

Then you cant focus on the law then

Con'traire! Con'traire!

I do focus on "the law!" As well as Messiah! As well, as He who sent Messiah!
Doing "spiritual sacrifices" meet for (a) further "maturing", not so much for salvation, as that comes "with the package", so to speak.
1 Peter 2 (KJV)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

For one entering into "the Holy Priesthood", these "spiritual sacrifices" are what "pays for the ticket", in gaining admission INTO "the Holy Priesthood", AFTER "the GIFT of salvation."


Whereas "salvation?" Is a GIFT!
Jeremiah 6 (KJV)
10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.
16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

 

[NayborBear]

My view is just the opposite of yours: the words of the risen Christ supersede those of the physical Jesus.

2 Peter 3 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[NayborBear]

But you are ginoring my questions and verses.

The earth Jesus said His earthy words would never pass, that those words are the doctrine to follow and the holy SPirit would being THOSE words to rememberance:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.



The above verse shows that to be false doctrine.

Well the only time Jesus speaks about this post post resurrection is in the gospels and Acts:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Acts 1:6-8, " 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

If we are talking a ascended Jesus He only directly speaks in Revelation.



Matt 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

SO "His words" did not include His teachings? Seems like a way to ignore everything He said?



False. He said to teach what He taught:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

one of His chosen disciples say this: "the teaching of Christ, "

2 John 1:9-11, " 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

John 14:21, “he who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”



You are misrepresenting the "scribes and pharise" verse. It about following their teaching according to what the word says and not their made up nonsense.

Also you keep abolishing His words when He syas voer and over the oppisite.

and there is this post ascention:

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

But the question is what commands?

The ones that will not pass until haven and earth pass and all is fulfilled:

Matthew 5:17-20, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

heaven and earth have not passed and all is not yet accomplished/fulfilled.

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

Tis a common "tactic" with free grace types! Ignoring "questions/battles", they cannot win!
Romans 6 (KJV)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Yet, they do!
1 Peter 2 (KJV)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
They aren't looking FOR, nor (some) even caring ABOUT "the Holy Priesthood!"
Grace will "see them through!"

 

[Grandpa]

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:14-20 KJV)

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Those who work at the law DO NOT have righteousness. Your righteousness will not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees by doing what they did. Which is working at the law by their own understanding.


Righteousness is by Faith in Christ.


So you have to decide. Do you want to work at the law? Or do you want to be Righteous by Faith in Christ?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:14-20 KJV)

Greetings lightbearer,

Here's an interesting translation that uses the meaning of the Greek word in today's vernacular since we, through time have been separated from the "gist" of the term.

Mat 5:17-20 ERV

(17) "Don't think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them.

(18) I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

(19) "A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God's kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God's kingdom.

(20) I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God's kingdom.


SG

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: Greetings, S.Gardner! The risen Jesus' words did abolish the Law.

I was hoping for a more detailed address of the scriptures I cited...

The apostle Paul was Christ's spokesman and was used by the Lord to teach us salvation by grace through faith, apart from the Law.

Romans 6:14 (NIV)

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[NayborBear]

The apostle Paul was Christ's spokesman and was used by the Lord to teach us salvation by grace through faith, apart from the Law.

Romans 6:14 (NIV)

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

.....and this is "fine", for the newer Christians. To a "point!"
What is not fine, and what causes one, or ones "diminished entrances"(least/greatest), into the Kingdom of Heaven, is when, after receiving this free gift of salvation, the "teaching" of STAYING "Apart from the Law!"

 

[Marcelo]

That is why I say those churches obsessed with the great commission are really contradicting themselves. They love to use the Matthew version because it avoided the more controversial aspects of the ones in Mark and John.

But they quickly breeze thru the part on “teaching them to obey...” hoping that no one asked, “wait a minute. At no point did the ascended Christ actually told the 12 that the law of Moses have passed.”

Which is the original title of your thread in the OP 🤣

That's right! The sacrifice on the cross had already taken place, but it was not yet time to preach salvation by grace through faith apart from the Law. That's why the Lord told His disciples to teach ALL nations to observe ALL His teachings (Old Covenant teachings).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Con'traire! Con'traire!

I do focus on "the law!" As well as Messiah! As well, as He who sent Messiah!
Doing "spiritual sacrifices" meet for (a) further "maturing", not so much for salvation, as that comes "with the package", so to speak.
1 Peter 2 (KJV)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

For one entering into "the Holy Priesthood", these "spiritual sacrifices" are what "pays for the ticket", in gaining admission INTO "the Holy Priesthood", AFTER "the GIFT of salvation."


Whereas "salvation?" Is a GIFT!
Jeremiah 6 (KJV)
10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.
16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Then you focus on self (performance) and not others (out or up)

a person focused on others will by nature be obedient, they do not need the law

a person focused on law is worried about how good they are, which is self focused

 

[Marcelo]

And I realized from your discussion with FTS, about animal sacrifice, another possible scenario for your consideration.

Before the temple was destroyed in AD 70, all the Jewish believers who accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, aka the Gospel of the Kingdom, will still be sacrificing animals for their sins, throughout all of Acts.

Did the 12 ever tell them, "Wait a minute, Jesus's death on the cross means he is the true sacrifice that is required for sins. All of you must stop sacrificing animals for your sins from now on!"

If they did, would the Jewish believers have stoned them?

Yes, I believe animal sacrifice persisted for decades after the cross because neither the pre-cross Jesus nor the resurrected Christ (before being taken up to heaven) ever told the disciples to stop keeping the Law. It took a long time for all Christians to learn about salvation by grace.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Tis a common "tactic" with free grace types! Ignoring "questions/battles", they cannot win!
Romans 6 (KJV)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Yet, they do!
1 Peter 2 (KJV)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
They aren't looking FOR, nor (some) even caring ABOUT "the Holy Priesthood!"
Grace will "see them through!"

I had been taught a grace perversion doctrine my whole life at every chruch I had been to, it was not until I read for myself without outside influence that I noticed the word said different. If only there were places that taught according to Jesus words, but I suppose they would not get as many attendees. WHat I find, just as you said is most kind of cut out and ignore all the parts of the word that require a change in walk, partiularly those that give EXACT paramaters. Focusing on the "requirements/triats" that are not absolute but rather abstract then anyone can "put" themselves in the proper catagory without need to actually walk in or submit to the way the word says. What I find is this then becomes the flagship or foundational doctrine and anyone who says differently is cast into the false doctrine catagory.

This verse is true, but people will accuse you all day if one was to say it:

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

and people say "love" well anyone can love. Is it God's version of love?

That a reason why Jesus walk on earth is so important:

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”

1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”

But what have many done? Abolished His walk and teaching while in the flesh and said "no the risen Chrsit!"

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Then you focus on self (performance) and not others (out or up)

a person focused on others will by nature be obedient, they do not need the law

a person focused on law is worried about how good they are, which is self focused

Is it ok to focus on what the Father and Jesus tell us we MUST do?

 

[NayborBear]

Then you focus on self (performance) and not others (out or up)

a person focused on others will by nature be obedient, they do not need the law

a person focused on law is worried about how good they are, which is self focused

Very astute observations, EG!
But, it's not self performance. Tis self obedience!

A person "focused on others", is "picking at splinters" in others, while "swallowing camels" themselves. Relying on faith, love, and grace, to "cover" their "coming up short" of "the law."

A person "focused on law" IS worried about how well they are "following/adhering" TO "the law", considering the Holy "Government" of God, they find themselves in the presence of. Not for the sake OF salvation however!
But, for the "sake" of (a) "Joint Heirness" WITH Christ, and not IN Christ! (where grace abounds).
IOW? Becoming a "fellow Priest" in "the Holy Priethood."

 

[Marcelo]

But you are ginoring my questions and verses.

The earth Jesus said His earthy words would never pass, that those words are the doctrine to follow and the holy SPirit would being THOSE words to rememberance:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.............

During His walk on earth, Jesus taught obedience to the law of Moses and said not one tittle would be removed from it until ALL had been fulfilled.

You claim ALL has not yet been fulfilled and therefore you believe Christians are supposed to continue keeping the law of Moses. But if ALL has not yet been fulfilled we cannot fail to keep any of the ordinances (not one tittle will be removed from the Law). You honestly admit that you don't keep all the Mitzvot and I praise you for that, but let's see what Jesus said about people who don't keep the whole Law:

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now let's see what James said:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Now Paul:

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

See? The law of Moses is an all or nothing thing.