Is Addiction the Sin of Idolatry, or is it a disease?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes it does just like this thread is completely miss using what the Bible means what idolatry is.

biblically it’s about worshipping statue gods, not the secular meaning of idolatry of art.

Bowing down and worshipping gods, is not the same as a person who loves art.

you stopped at division keep going to drunkenness

Again, idolatry extends beyond statues..that is only the "letter of the law".

Idolatry is really much more encompassing in that any time something else replaces God as your chief desire in life, you are being an idolater.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
(ESV)

Paul applies the term "idolatry" to all of those things.

 

[UnderGrace]

Neither. Addiction means bondage to a habit which is harmful. It is self-induced and may be broken, just like any other harmful habit.

Chemical addictions have a physiological component so not sure that the "broken" as in self will power is true.

 

[Heyjude]

I'm doing fine.

I wouldn't seek him for advice on spiritual issues because he's a non-Christian.

He may have some insights, but unless his world revolves around a relationship with Christ, I would ultimately refuse him as a counselor.

Ultimately, my position is this: if the person's fundamental orientation does not revolve around God, like the earth revolves around the sun, they are an idolater. They will fill this void with something else....a substance, a person, etcetera. By definition, a non-believer is an idolater.

Humans were created for an intimate relationship with God, and if they don't have that, they fill it with substitutes. Those substitutes are idols.

Romans 1 is the best explanation of this idolatry, if one really contemplates it carefully.

Well if you needed a Christian Doctor in the UK you wouldn't find one easily. What would you do then if you lived here? Don't you think God leads these people to help you if you are in his hands? What next, Christian Pilots, Christian food companies, Christian cloth makers. Where would it end? I would pray and believe Jesus would guide that hands that help me, as how can anyone live like that?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

So you think, that "pharmaceo" or medication is "attempts" to get into the "sheep pen" by some other way that the "Sheep Gate" do you? So when my Dad was dying of cancer in dreadful pain so bad I couldn't witness, his doctor giving him pain relief from medication was doing that do you? Ever been in pain yourself? Weird how no one mentions the word "pain" as if they never had any. People have to take medications for a number of reasons, especially at the end of their lives if the pain is too much to bear. So I strongly disagree with that. People can be addicted to pain killers from injuries as well without realising. They can just be doing what their Doc says, not trying to "attempt" to get into the "Sheep pen". Be nice if people could see things from a heart felt point of view instead of a judgement point of view.

1. pharmaco-(Prefix)
   medication
2. Origin: From φάρμακον.

I know this isn't my post, but I want to make it clear I am not claiming that using medications for legitimate pain relief is immoral.

The Bible actually allows for that.

It is when someone uses it to fill their heart-need for a relationship with God that it is idolatry. He is using it as a substitute for a healthy relationship with God, where his fundamental orientation is not centered around his Creator. That is what he was created for.

Prov 31:6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;

There is a difference between legitimate use of medications or alcohol for pain relief, and using it to medicate one's sinful heart condition.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well if you needed a Christian Doctor in the UK you wouldn't find one easily. What would you do then if you lived here? Don't you think God leads these people to help you if you are in his hands? What next, Christian Pilots, Christian food companies, Christian cloth makers. Where would it end? I would pray and believe Jesus would guide that hands that help me, as how can anyone live like that?

Personally, I think the pastors of churches should be counselors for members in regards to addictions, etcetera.

However, some pastors have abandoned that role.

In fact, I asked for counseling once at a larger church and was told that I should seek a local Christian counselor. The pastor or his staff didn't do that sort of thing. The counseling was related to a spiritual issue.

I realize a lot of pastors are incompetent and haven't dealt with these issues, though.

I wouldn't go to a non-Christian about spiritual issues, and addiction is a spiritual issue at a certain level. Going through withdrawal might be something that needs supervision and medical care, though, but I wouldn't go to a non-Christian to be counseled on spiritual issues.

 

[Heyjude]

I know this isn't my post, but I want to make it clear I am not claiming that using medications for legitimate pain relief is immoral.

The Bible actually allows for that.

It is when someone uses it to fill their heart-need for a relationship with God that it is idolatry. He is using it as a substitute for a healthy relationship with God, where his fundamental orientation is not centered around his Creator. That is what he was created for.

Prov 31:6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;

There is a difference between legitimate use of medications or alcohol for pain relief, and using it to medicate one's sinful heart condition.

Fair enough. But people should understand. When you see very sick people who have a whole cabinet full of meds, its because they started off on one only. The ONE they take has SIDE effects, every doctor knows this (its isn't written on the back "may cause hell") and the reason I say this is because the "side effect" can be worse that what they suffered with from the first place. People should read the leaflets and would be shocked. The doctor then has to prescribe ANOTHER med to counteract the first - leading to a long chain of more and more and more. People cant just "come off" these things as they get a rush of hormones, brain release chemicals all at once that can drive them into a deep place (Jordan Peterson a good example recently). A lot of people who become addicted to pain killers including some very famous people actually, usually start off with an injury that they take pain killers for thinking that they wont do any harm. All until they cannot stop and then they are "addicted to painkillers". All because they listened to their well meaning Doctor. If you ask any Doctor they agree. Side effects, some of which are horrific. Its all about pain and pain relief internal or external. Not having a good time and forgetting God.

 

[JamOn]

I know it is sad you can’t wrap your mind around the fact idolatry is not addiction but worshipping.

Again, idolatry extends beyond statues..that is only the "letter of the law".

Idolatry is really much more encompassing in that any time something else replaces God as your chief desire in life, you are being an idolater.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
(ESV)

Paul applies the term "idolatry" to all of those things.

I apologize you are correct I was wrong, I’m still learning the Bible I’ve got about 6 yrs under my belt.
maybe I read to much on the internet what others say.

but I still think that that passion the idolatry can become beyond self indulgent and become physically addicted where their body can’t function without it. people die from alcohol withdrawals so it’s got go beyond just self indulgent for something to take a life and I’m not talking about at the end of ones life but that the addiction withdrawal ended their life

 

[Nat2019]

Hey UWC, how are you doing?


You left one book out of your recommendations which is a must read. Gabor Mate “In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts” among other great books he wrote.


Dr. Gabor Maté is a retired Hungarian Canadian based Physician, highly sought after for his expertise on a range of topics including addiction, stress and childhood development. He covers trauma, ADHD and worked with hard core addicts.

For twelve years Dr. Maté worked in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside with patients challenged by hard-core drug addiction, mental illness and HIV, including at Vancouver’s Supervised Injection Site. He noticed something others didnt notice.

While he doesn't write from a Gospel point of view (he is Jewish), he has experience and empathy and links most all (hard core) addictions to childhood trauma.

Although I see where you are coming from with the study you wrote, I disagree on this point.

“This is because we are allowing substitute gods to entertain and delight us instead of being fully engaged in passionate worship of God.“

Addicts are not addicts because they want to be “entertained and delighted” although maybe some are, I have never met any fully blown addicts that want to be addicts and I have dealt with a lot in my lifetime.

They are covering up pain, broken hearts and being “delighted” or “entertained” is far from their mind. In fact, most addicts WANT to stop, but just can't stop.

I do agree with the fact that the addict has less chance of recovery, if they have a spiritual “hole” in their lives, but pretty much all of the addicts Dr Mate treated (100%) had childhood trauma.The worse the trauma, the worse the addiction but I am talking about hard core addicts, not people who drink too much to be “entertained and delighted” at weekends, although this may lead to addiction I cannot say. Most people know an addict and most people know if they are out of control or not.

AA is alright, but it doesn't address past trauma. In fact the more stories of their lives you hear, the more you wonder how it was possible for them NOT to end up an addict because it would be impossible to take such pain and live.

What is especially interesting is how the Native Americans have more addiction than before due to certain experiences they have had, displacement etc, which was not existent before. Most of them are broken hearted or cannot take the pain or the memory of trauma and don't realise it as they cant even think straight because addicts just need the next fix. They just want the pain to go away.

Gabor Mates approach has helped many I know - maybe it's because people are willing to listen to him because he is likeable. But I doubt any hard core addict would listen to anyone with a Gospel in their hand, who came at them from an angle accusing them of doing it for “entertainment and delight” to be honest. Not one.

“It is impossible to understand addiction without asking what relief the addict finds, or hopes to find, in the drug or the addictive behaviour” Gabor Mate.

I don't have any heros but if I did, Gabor would be mine as I love this guy. He has helped loads of people that he doesn't even talk about and has a meek and humble approach.

https://drgabormate.com/book/in-the-realm-of-hungry-ghosts/

no

Chemical addictions have a physiological component so not sure that the "broken" as in self will power is true.

When a person uses drugs for along time they actually get brain damage and its harder to have self will. They get issues with their moods and depression even years after they quit. That have trouble experiencing pleasure of any kind after they quit, because the dopamine is lowered in their brain causing a chemical imbalance. I know this because of my family members. When they tried to quit drugs they were going crazy and we all had to watch it. My family members were in such turmoil emotionally and they were angry and crying wishing they werent alive. So people who haven't experienced this kind of thing cant really understand. I myself struggled to get of cigarettes, it was horrible years ago. You mind is so fuzzy, you are stressed and having panic attacks, feeling confused. And all you need is one more smoke.

 

[Heyjude]

So you think, that "pharmaceo" or medication is "attempts" to get into the "sheep pen" by some other way that the "Sheep Gate" do you? So when my Dad was dying of cancer in dreadful pain so bad I couldn't witness, his doctor giving him pain relief from medication was doing that do you? Ever been in pain yourself? Weird how no one mentions the word "pain" as if they never had any. People have to take medications for a number of reasons, especially at the end of their lives if the pain is too much to bear. So I strongly disagree with that. People can be addicted to pain killers from injuries as well without realising. They can just be doing what their Doc says, not trying to "attempt" to get into the "Sheep pen". Be nice if people could see things from a heart felt point of view instead of a judgement point of view.

1. pharmaco-(Prefix)
   medication
2. Origin: From φάρμακον.

Sorry Nayborbear. I didn't mean to make you sad. Its just there are too many "New Age" people promoting that Pharmacy means Sorcery or even worse and twisting the meaning. It can lead some to think the wrong way that's all. No offence meant and big hug. Just too many of my family gone to suicide, drugs and left in a terrible way through these hell drugs, prescription or not and lost a lot and it hurts. Didn't mean to take it out on you.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I know it is sad you can’t wrap your mind around the fact idolatry is not addiction but worshipping.


I apologize you are correct I was wrong, I’m still learning the Bible I’ve got about 6 yrs under my belt.
maybe I read to much on the internet what others say.

but I still think that that passion the idolatry can become beyond self indulgent and become physically addicted where their body can’t function without it. people die from alcohol withdrawals so it’s got go beyond just self indulgent for something to take a life and I’m not talking about at the end of ones life but that the addiction withdrawal ended their life

No problem. To be honest I didn't even think about these things until I started doing parachurch ministry and working with addicts. Actually one of the addicts who was a Christian made comments that got me started thinking, and then I started reading about the relationship between idolatry and addiction, and I realized it was true.

I will agree that addiction is much more complicated than simple idolatry and it can require medical help to escape from the bondage. However, I think that the initial problem was idolatry.

For instance, I have friends who became hooked on drugs or alcohol. One was abused by his father and was not a believer at the time. I think he used drugs and alcohol to medicate the emotional pain, because he did not know God and was not able to turn to him with his pain. I believe that is a form of idolatry...he substituted them for God, whether he was aware of it or not.

He was created to be a worshiping being, and for his life to revolve around God and a relationship with Him, just like all of us. We were created, not to worship Him for the sole purpose of glorifying God, but created in a manner that worship brings us the ultimate joy and pleasure, too. So, he wasn't deriving his purpose, pleasure, fulfillment in life by worshiping God because he didn't know God. Instead he medicated his relational pain with drugs.

Ultimately he came to realize what he was created for, and to begin worshiping God. But, even with that, he still needed help withdrawing from the substances. It didn't happen all at once, although it could with some people. He had to go through a withdrawal program.

But, ultimately I believe the cause was idolatry. I am not claiming he consciously meant to commit idolatry and substitute other things for God, but that is what happens when someone doesn't have the relationship with God. We were created to be worshiping beings, and that is how we are ultimately fulfilled.

 

[Heyjude]

no
When a person uses drugs for along time they actually get brain damage and its harder to have self will. They get issues with their moods and depression even years after they quit. That have trouble experiencing pleasure of any kind after they quit, because the dopamine is lowered in their brain causing a chemical imbalance. I know this because of my family members. When they tried to quit drugs they were going crazy and we all had to watch it. My family members were in such turmoil emotionally and they were angry and crying wishing they werent alive. So people who haven't experienced this kind of thing cant really understand. I myself struggled to get of cigarettes, it was horrible years ago. You mind is so fuzzy, you are stressed and having panic attacks, feeling confused. And all you need is one more smoke.

Yes I agree with everything you say. I think there are two types - ones that have trauma and ones that take a drug not knowing what the hell is going to happen to them when they quit. Some cant. Side effects horrific and not just for them either but from their families who just cant believe the hell they are going through. All I was saying was about the real hard core ones who get the worst wrap - not all people but one drug can lead to another and one ciggie to another until its an "addiction" without anyone realising they are addicted as they are too far gone. Only the ones around them see it how it is by then.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

no
When a person uses drugs for along time they actually get brain damage and its harder to have self will. They get issues with their moods and depression even years after they quit. That have trouble experiencing pleasure of any kind after they quit, because the dopamine is lowered in their brain causing a chemical imbalance. I know this because of my family members. When they tried to quit drugs they were going crazy and we all had to watch it. My family members were in such turmoil emotionally and they were angry and crying wishing they werent alive. So people who haven't experienced this kind of thing cant really understand. I myself struggled to get of cigarettes, it was horrible years ago. You mind is so fuzzy, you are stressed and having panic attacks, feeling confused. And all you need is one more smoke.

By the way, that is another substance I abused.

I smoked 3 packs of cigarettes per day from about age 17 to 22.

I started attending church at age 22. The pastor told me if he heard I was smoking, he would ask me not to attend anymore. At that time I was desperate for a relationship with God, so I quit smoking cold-turkey.

Now, I don't believe it was good to tell me that I needed to quit smoking or I wouldn't be allowed to attend church. If I was a pastor I'd never do that. But, at the same time, I do believe it showed that smoking was one of my idols, and at that point I was willing to give it up for a relationship with God.

That is the opposite of idolatry.

There are other sins I continue to indulge in, though, and I believe those are idolatrous because ultimately I am disbelieving God, who is telling me that those things are wrong, and continuing to indulge in them (mainly overeating).

 

[Nat2019]

Yes I agree with everything you say. I think there are two types - ones that have trauma and ones that take a drug not knowing what the hell is going to happen to them when they quit. Some cant. Side effects horrific and not just for them either but from their families who just cant believe the hell they are going through. All I was saying was about the real hard core ones who get the worst wrap - not all people but one drug can lead to another and one ciggie to another until its an "addiction" without anyone realising they are addicted as they are too far gone. Only the ones around them see it how it is by then.

By the way, that is another substance I abused.

I smoked 3 packs of cigarettes per day from about age 17 to 22.

I started attending church at age 22. The pastor told me if he heard I was smoking, he would ask me not to attend anymore. At that time I was desperate for a relationship with God, so I quit smoking cold-turkey.

Now, I don't believe it was good to tell me that I needed to quit smoking or I wouldn't be allowed to attend church. If I was a pastor I'd never do that. But, at the same time, I do believe it showed that smoking was one of my idols, and at that point I was willing to give it up for a relationship with God.

That is the opposite of idolatry.

There are other sins I continue to indulge in, though, and I believe those are idolatrous because ultimately I am disbelieving God, who is telling me that those things are wrong, and continuing to indulge in them (mainly overeating).

Yes your pastor told you the right thing. It is an idol and also the price has tripled over the last few years making it have more financial effects on families. It is also not looking after the temple of God.

 

[Heyjude]

By the way, that is another substance I abused.

I smoked 3 packs of cigarettes per day from about age 17 to 22.

I started attending church at age 22. The pastor told me if he heard I was smoking, he would ask me not to attend anymore. At that time I was desperate for a relationship with God, so I quit smoking cold-turkey.

Now, I don't believe it was good to tell me that I needed to quit smoking or I wouldn't be allowed to attend church. If I was a pastor I'd never do that. But, at the same time, I do believe it showed that smoking was one of my idols, and at that point I was willing to give it up for a relationship with God.

That is the opposite of idolatry.

There are other sins I continue to indulge in, though, and I believe those are idolatrous because ultimately I am disbelieving God, who is telling me that those things are wrong, and continuing to indulge in them (mainly overeating).

Well the SDAs say that even drinking coffee is wrong don't they? What is worse then? If a person has one cigarette, its a form of idolatry or the full blown crack addict and alcoholic? Surely to break one law is to break them all yes? Where do we stop then. Only "pure" water etc? I have an addiction to buying books I reckon, as every time I say to myself, don't buy anymore as I am tripping over them everywhere as there are no bookshelves left, I see another....is that idolotry?

 

[NayborBear]

So you think, that "pharmaceo" or medication is "attempts" to get into the "sheep pen" by some other way that the "Sheep Gate" do you? So when my Dad was dying of cancer in dreadful pain so bad I couldn't witness, his doctor giving him pain relief from medication was doing that do you? Ever been in pain yourself? Weird how no one mentions the word "pain" as if they never had any. People have to take medications for a number of reasons, especially at the end of their lives if the pain is too much to bear. So I strongly disagree with that. People can be addicted to pain killers from injuries as well without realising. They can just be doing what their Doc says, not trying to "attempt" to get into the "Sheep pen". Be nice if people could see things from a heart felt point of view instead of a judgement point of view.

1. pharmaco-(Prefix)
   medication
2. Origin: From φάρμακον.

Seems I do recall myself stating "that in nearly every case."

What's "flesh is flesh."
What's "Spirit is Spirit."

Far as Dr.'s go? There occupation is to "Preserve life", while sacrificing "quality!"
No matter what those under their care may desire!
There are many who desire to keep "sucking air", by whatever means necessary, simply for the sake of "sucking air."
Does this make sense to you?

 

[Heyjude]

Seems I do recall myself stating "that in nearly every case."

What's "flesh is flesh."
What's "Spirit is Spirit."

Far as Dr.'s go? There occupation is to "Preserve life", while sacrificing "quality!"
No matter what those under their care may desire!
There are many who desire to keep "sucking air", by whatever means necessary, simply for the sake of "sucking air."
Does this make sense to you?

I hope I understand you correctly, but say if I am wrong but here goes. Do you mean that like many years ago, before the pharmaceutical industry took off proper, people had a heart attack at say 60 just for example, and they didn't resuscitate them because that was their natural life span, for instance? Without the need for "artificial" needs to keep them alive? I get what you are saying. In fact, I had a similar conversation when the doctors wanted to withdraw life support from one of my elderly family. They start off saying, "everyone has to die sometime blah" then explain to you why we cant live for ever. I am not disagreeing with that at all. But I DO ask the doctors, why do all the medical world keep inventing things to keep people alive longer then? Then complain the NHS is crippled "because of the aged"? Doesn't make any sense. Is that what you mean? If I don't "get it" sorry I only had 4 hours sleep so bit fuzzy. But mostly I was referring to people in pain - its hard to take pain without pain relief and a lot of people don't intend to get hooked but they end up hooked anyways.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes your pastor told you the right thing. It is an idol and also the price has tripled over the last few years making it have more financial effects on families. It is also not looking after the temple of God.

Right, I'm glad I quit actually.

I was behind a lady who bought cigarettes at the convenience store the other day. A pack of cigarettes here costs $7 USD now.

 

[Nat2019]

Yes your pastor told you the right thing. It is an idol and also the price has tripled over the last few years making it have more financial effects on families. It is also not looking after the temple of God.

I only smoked for 5 years thay

Well the SDAs say that even drinking coffee is wrong don't they? What is worse then? If a person has one cigarette, its a form of idolatry or the full blown crack addict and alcoholic? Surely to break one law is to break them all yes? Where do we stop then. Only "pure" water etc? I have an addiction to buying books I reckon, as every time I say to myself, don't buy anymore as I am tripping over them everywhere as there are no bookshelves left, I see another....is that idolotry?

If you saw the affects of crack like I have you would see that it affects every part of a human, smoking one crack pipe can lead to more sins than a cigarette can even though they are both idols... cigarettes have less impact on peoples behavior, than crack does.

Well the SDAs say that even drinking coffee is wrong don't they? What is worse then? If a person has one cigarette, its a form of idolatry or the full blown crack addict and alcoholic? Surely to break one law is to break them all yes? Where do we stop then. Only "pure" water etc? I have an addiction to buying books I reckon, as every time I say to myself, don't buy anymore as I am tripping over them everywhere as there are no bookshelves left, I see another....is that idolotry?

I drink coffee. But why would someone want one cigarette for no apparent reason?. If a person that had an addiction had one cigarette, they would start their addiction again. Doing something once isnt really considered an addiction. A lifestyle of doing something is an addiction. A daily occurrence.

 

[Nat2019]

Right, I'm glad I quit actually.

I was behind a lady who bought cigarettes at the convenience store the other day. A pack of cigarettes here costs $7 USD now.

Wow in Australia it costs $22.00 a pack sometimes more. They used to cost $10.00 a pack.

 

[Heyjude]

I'm doing fine.

I wouldn't seek him for advice on spiritual issues because he's a non-Christian.

He may have some insights, but unless his world revolves around a relationship with Christ, I would ultimately refuse him as a counselor.

Ultimately, my position is this: if the person's fundamental orientation does not revolve around God, like the earth revolves around the sun, they are an idolater. They will fill this void with something else....a substance, a person, etcetera. By definition, a non-believer is an idolater.

Humans were created for an intimate relationship with God, and if they don't have that, they fill it with substitutes. Those substitutes are idols.

Romans 1 is the best explanation of this idolatry, if one really contemplates it carefully.

But you cant save or help sinners if you dont hang around with any of them or have nothing to do with them? Jesus sat and ate with sinners so why cant you? In fact Jesus only came for sinners not the righteous. If you are in a hospital bed ill, you cannot insist on a Christian surgeon. Or maybe you can in the US but in the UK you are lucky to see a surgeon at all there is such a waiting list, let alone question his faith.

Luke 5:32 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Mark 2:17 17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."