Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
It amazes me how you keep deflecting where your idealogy leads. If you cant explain it or defend it then admit it.
I’m not deflecting. But the Bible doesn’t tell us how Satan got to where he is now. I will say this, no one does anything outside their nature. Satan wasn’t infallible and he fell of his own doing. God never made him do it.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,453
113
Don’t post foolish stuff like this at me my friend. God is not the author of any evil. God created everyone perfect, but not infallible. The only infallible One is God. In fact, He is impeccable.
Just is not Him being fair. Just is Him giving us what we deserve. Trust me, you or I neither one want His fairness. We’d both end up in the Lake of Fire.

Can anyone be saved without hearing the gospel, never knowing a thing about the Christ?
So babies and the mentally handicapped go to hell? Just is fair.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
If God is all just and loving then how do you answer for those who never heard the Gospel or never heard of Christ?

They are a law unto themselves that God will judge. They had every natural revelation of God and even God working within. We are only responsible to what we know. As to why babies or the mentally handicapped go to Heaven.

How many abortions are committed each year? 10,000? 100,000?

Does 5000 or 50,000 of those babies go to Hell?
The Bible doesn’t speak about babies eternal state, either. You’re appealing with your emotions my friend.

If a baby is automatically ushered into heaven right after being aborted, you’ve made the pro-choice’s stance the kindest thing a woman could ever do. Just get pregnant and abort and populate heaven with babies. It’ll be less cruel than having a baby and it use its free will and die lost later, right?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,453
113
I’m not deflecting. But the Bible doesn’t tell us how Satan got to where he is now. I will say this, no one does anything outside their nature. Satan wasn’t infallible and he fell of his own doing. God never made him do it.
Either Satan had free will to rebel or he didn't. I believe it takes more faith to say God caused Satan to rebel.

But good atleast you are beginning to admit one part of God's creations have free will.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Either Satan had free will to rebel or he didn't. I believe it takes more faith to say God caused Satan to rebel.

But good atleast you are beginning to admit one part of God's creations have free will.
I never said Satan had free will my friend. You said that. I said he would never operate outside his nature. Neither does God. That’s why God can’t sin. It’s not in His nature to do so.

Satan was a created being, being perfect, but not infallible. Adam was, too. You and I and all of Adam’s posterity weren’t created sinless, but dead in Adam.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,453
113
The Bible doesn’t speak about babies eternal state, either. You’re appealing with your emotions my friend.

If a baby is automatically ushered into heaven right after being aborted, you’ve made the pro-choice’s stance the kindest thing a woman could ever do. Just get pregnant and abort and populate heaven with babies. It’ll be less cruel than having a baby and it use its free will and die lost later, right?
Nope the Bible also says do not murder. And yes even jesus said the Kingdom belongs to such as these. Paul said he was once alive before the knowing of the law.
Romans 5:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,956
8,671
113
What I meant by mystical is that no one can be saved w/o ever hearing or reading the word of God. God uses His word to save ppl. So if someone dies w/o ever hearing it, they will stand before Him as a condemned sinner.
While it's true that NO ONE will be saved by any other way than the Blood of Christ, it is also true that His Blood and grace will cover some who have not heard the Word, like children. Children will not be in Hell. And I believe others who haven't heard the Word will also be covered, but that is admittedly a harder case to make then children being covered by His Blood.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,453
113
Again, the Bible doesn’t tell us what happens to them. But God will do no injustice to anyone my friend. You’re appealing with your emotions and not the Bible my friend.
No I am appealing to philosophical logic and reason based in context of scripture and sound judgment.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,658
3,540
113
While it's true that NO ONE will be saved by any other way than the Blood of Christ, it is also true that His Blood and grace will cover some who have not heard the Word, like children. Children will not be in Hell. And I believe others who haven't heard the Word will also be covered, but that is admittedly a harder case to make then children being covered by His Blood.
Agree except for those “others” being covered. If that’s the case, let’s keep the gospel a secret and not share God’s word with anyone.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Nope the Bible also says do not murder. And yes even jesus said the Kingdom belongs to such as these. Paul said he was once alive before the knowing of the law.
Romans 5:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Well, seeing Paul wrote other places that all have sinned[Romans 3:23, 1 Cor. 15:22,] we know he is not crossing himself by saying he was spiritually alive at that time. He lived the Law, and thought it was all he needed. But when confronted by the Christ, he saw that the Law, which he thought was life, had actually killed him. He was dead spiritually and didn’t know it.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,956
8,671
113
I never said Satan had free will my friend. You said that. I said he would never operate outside his nature. Neither does God. That’s why God can’t sin. It’s not in His nature to do so.

Satan was a created being, being perfect, but not infallible. Adam was, too. You and I and all of Adam’s posterity weren’t created sinless, but dead in Adam.
Yes. This is an important point that must be stressed. We were NOT made in God's Image and likeness. Yes, we may physically LOOK like Jesus did on earth, but we certainly are not made in His Spiritual Image, whereas Adam and Eve were before the fall.

We are ALL made in the spiritual image of Adam. That is why Christ had to come in the first place;


Genesis 5:3
New King James Version


3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, AFTER HIS IMAGE, and named him Seth.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
While it's true that NO ONE will be saved by any other way than the Blood of Christ, it is also true that His Blood and grace will cover some who have not heard the Word, like children. Children will not be in Hell. And I believe others who haven't heard the Word will also be covered, but that is admittedly a harder case to make then children being covered by His Blood.
But no one can know the Christ but via the word of God. That’s the thrust of Paul’s writing in Romans 10:14-17.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Yes. This is an important point that must be stressed. We were NOT made in God's Image and likeness. Yes, we may physically LOOK like Jesus did on earth, but we certainly are not made in His Spiritual Image, whereas Adam and Eve were before the fall.

We are ALL made in the spiritual image of Adam. That is why Christ had to come in the first place;


Genesis 5:3
New King James Version


3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, AFTER HIS IMAGE, and named him Seth.
We are made in the image of God, but Adam marred that image. We are made in the image of Adam[Gen. 5:3], the marred image of God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,453
113
I never said Satan had free will my friend. You said that. I said he would never operate outside his nature. Neither does God. That’s why God can’t sin. It’s not in His nature to do so.

Satan was a created being, being perfect, but not infallible. Adam was, too. You and I and all of Adam’s posterity weren’t created sinless, but dead in Adam.
You are contradicting yourself by saying Satan was is perfect but yet not infallible. ??? We must define the word perfect that describes God compared to perfect of Satan. Are you meaning perfect in design? If so then yes he was a angel as perfectly designed by God but chose of his own doing or in your own words, "

and he fell of his own doing. God never made him do it.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,956
8,671
113
Agree except for those “others” being covered. If that’s the case, let’s keep the gospel a secret and not share God’s word with anyone.
Nope. You are putting words in my mouth. By others, I mean mentally retarded, and those righteous who haven't heard the Word. I will not judge who they are.
But we need to understand that people like Job, Abraham, and even Noah, didn't have the written Word that we know about. Moses hadn't written it yet.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
You are contradicting yourself by saying Satan was is perfect but yet not infallible. ??? We must define the word perfect that describes God compared to perfect of Satan. Are you meaning perfect in design? If so then yes he was a angel as perfectly designed by God but chose of his own doing or in your own words, "
What I mean is Satan, all other angels, and Adam, God created them perfect. They were sinless. But that does not mean they were infallible, able to not sin. If that were true, they’d been sinless like God. They were not made infallible, but fallible. They were created w/o a blemish, but that doesn’t mean they could remain that way.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
You can't do anything to obtain God's mercy, nor could you "do it God's way" which tells the tale: you think you did something to gain salvation.

You didn't. You couldn't.

So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.

no one presented fake news. you did not understand what he said

most likely because you are so eager to present your teaching

here is what he said:

John146 said:
It’s not us who determines the methods God uses, but God. If we’re going to receive mercy, we’ve got to do it God’s way through the Lord Jesus Christ. We can’t will it any other way.
there is absolutely nothing in that quote that indicates or gives reason for opposition and rhetoric regarding a false hope

you read INTO what people say

what he actually is saying, is that mercy is through Jesus and only Jesus and there is no other way

however, you say that is false and create an enormous post and all for nothing

I suspect you did not even really take the time to make sure you understood what he was saying because he said nothing wrong...not even according to Calvinism

he said IT IS NOT US...so where is he somehow giving fake news?

HE ISN"T!
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Nope. You are putting words in my mouth. By others, I mean mentally retarded, and those righteous who haven't heard the Word. I will not judge who they are.
But we need to understand that people like Job, Abraham, and even Noah, didn't have the written Word that we know about. Moses hadn't written it yet.
And yet, Hebrews 1 addresses those last two sentences of yours. :)