Is unconditional election biblical?

[notuptome]

Yep. Not sure how that changes anything I posted.

But I would ask why YOU believe after hearing the Word of God? Why do YOU believe?
What if I told you that eternal life could be attained by by bringing 70 duck-billed platypus tails to the top of Mt. Everest? Would you believe me?

Cause that's how many view the Gospel. As foolishness. So why do YOU believe it?

Why? I should think you would know why. Jesus has the words of eternal life. God uses His Holy Spirit to make His word above all other words.

The gospel will always be foolishness to the lost. It becomes precious to those who believe. God has concluded us all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Those who perish do so in spite of Gods calling and His great mercy of which they receive benefit. God cause the rain to fall on both the good and the evil.

No man believes against his will. Election is the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. Christ will save any who come to Him. After they come they are His and cannot be lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PennEd]

You are making unwarranted assumptions and trying to set up a strawman that you can defeat within your interpretation of theology.

God found me and I responded. I dont hold puppet theology and I am accountable for my sin. The knowledge and guilt of sin arose and Christ was the answer.

Please explain the assumption and or strawman?

But it DOES look like progress is being made here. You admit that it was GOD who found YOU, NOT the other way around!

Why not just go that liiiittle extra step and say HE was the One who gifted you the faith to believe in Him? And it was your intellect and your reasoning (BOTH are gifts from Him too BTW) that reinforced the faith He already gave you.

 

[PennEd]

Christ will not save someone in unbelief.

I agree. It is necessary for Him to 1st "quicken" a person through Faith, which is activated by the hearing of the Gospel.

 

[John146]

I’m interested to hear from y’all, who do you think this verse is talking about, God’s elect?

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[PennEd]

Why? I should think you would know why. Jesus has the words of eternal life. God uses His Holy Spirit to make His word above all other words.

The gospel will always be foolishness to the lost. It becomes precious to those who believe. God has concluded us all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Those who perish do so in spite of Gods calling and His great mercy of which they receive benefit. God cause the rain to fall on both the good and the evil.

No man believes against his will. Election is the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. Christ will save any who come to Him. After they come they are His and cannot be lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well all this is very nice, but NONE of it answers the question. You just recited what you believe. But you did NOT answer WHY you believe what you just wrote!

 

[Grandpa]

That is incorrect. TULIP is thoroughly refuted by Scripture, since it contradicts the Gospel of Grace.

But those ensnared by this false gospel will never give up it as a lie. It takes a genuine love for the truth to abandon false teachings.

Total Depravity - Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 10:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Where is this refuted in scripture?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Please explain the assumption and or strawman?

But it DOES look like progress is being made here. You admit that it was GOD who found YOU, NOT the other way around!

Why not just go that liiiittle extra step and say HE was the One who gifted you the faith to believe in Him? And it was your intellect and your reasoning (BOTH are gifts from Him too BTW) that reinforced the faith He already gave you.

You pretty much said it was your reasoning and intellect. Then when I pointed that out using those terms, you saw the problem with that being the reason you believe, and merely scoffed them off, but NOT denying it.

This is your assumption.

So if it is NOT YOUR great reasoning and intellect that made you believe, WHAT WAS IT?

This is your straw man that your trying to build.

But anyways.

We only have progress within your understanding of the opposition's belief. It really is just that little step people disagree over.

God doesn't force belief that is unbiblical and unjust. That is God playing favorites. Mind and reasoning are God created in us. This is how we think. Your ability to think is a free will characteristic. Your ability as a child to love your parent or rebel is another characteristic of free will that branches from moral law.

I saw earlier you admitted all babies go to Heaven. But that doesn't fit Tulip theology. Also you must automatically assume your opposition isnt saved because if they was then they also robotically would be speaking the theology of God. God doesn't contradict so this forces the Calvinist to view the opposition as unsaved.

Scripture tells you to choose but you say nope it is lying you cannot choose. Scripture tells you to believe but you say nope it is lying we cannot believe. Scripture says abide but you nope we are forced to abide. Scripture warns of false teachers but you say it is just a test that will weed out the unchosen in the church. And finally the Calvinist ignores the most simplistic verse of John 3:16 that destroys most of the 5 point doctrine.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I agree. It is necessary for Him to 1st "quicken" a person through Faith, which is activated by the hearing of the Gospel.

Agree but
Who does the hearing? And eventually who does the believing though?

 

[Grandpa]

This is your assumption.



This is your straw man that your trying to build.

But anyways.

We only have progress within your understanding of the opposition's belief. It really is just that little step people disagree over.

God doesn't force belief that is unbiblical and unjust. That is God playing favorites. Mind and reasoning are God created in us. This is how we think. Your ability to think is a free will characteristic. Your ability as a child to love your parent or rebel is another characteristic of free will that branches from moral law.

I saw earlier you admitted all babies go to Heaven. But that doesn't fit Tulip theology. Also you must automatically assume your opposition isnt saved because if they was then they also robotically would be speaking the theology of God. God doesn't contradict so this forces the Calvinist to view the opposition as unsaved.

Scripture tells you to choose but you say nope it is lying you cannot choose. Scripture tells you to believe but you say nope it is lying we cannot believe. Scripture says abide but you nope we are forced to abide. Scripture warns of false teachers but you say it is just a test that will weed out the unchosen in the church. And finally the Calvinist ignores the most simplistic verse of John 3:16 that destroys most of the 5 point doctrine.

So only those with good reasoning abilities and intelligence can be saved.

Even in your example, don't some people have better reasoning abilities and higher intelligence than others?


What does the bible say about your reasoning abilities and intelligence???

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So only those with good reasoning abilities and intelligence can be saved.

Even in your example, don't some people have better reasoning abilities and higher intelligence than others?


What does the bible say about your reasoning abilities and intelligence???

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Never said this. This is what was assumed and being built into a strawman in which you just knocked over ever so easily when this wasn't even my belief. Lol

 

[PennEd]

This is your assumption.



This is your straw man that your trying to build.

But anyways.

We only have progress within your understanding of the opposition's belief. It really is just that little step people disagree over.

God doesn't force belief that is unbiblical and unjust. That is God playing favorites. Mind and reasoning are God created in us. This is how we think. Your ability to think is a free will characteristic. Your ability as a child to love your parent or rebel is another characteristic of free will that branches from moral law.

I saw earlier you admitted all babies go to Heaven. But that doesn't fit Tulip theology. Also you must automatically assume your opposition isnt saved because if they was then they also robotically would be speaking the theology of God. God doesn't contradict so this forces the Calvinist to view the opposition as unsaved.

Scripture tells you to choose but you say nope it is lying you cannot choose. Scripture tells you to believe but you say nope it is lying we cannot believe. Scripture says abide but you nope we are forced to abide. Scripture warns of false teachers but you say it is just a test that will weed out the unchosen in the church. And finally the Calvinist ignores the most simplistic verse of John 3:16 that destroys most of the 5 point doctrine.

Talk about stawmen! Woo baby! Somebody get me a match, cause we gonna have a bonfire!

First, I built no strawman. This is what YOU said: Roughsoul

"I began to study all major world religions but the evidence for most religions or beliefs was very poor. Most importantly the religions that make absolute truth claims like Heaven and Hell exist, makes us examine those even more closely. For example Buddhism or Atheism doesn't make a absolute truth claim like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam dealing with soul destination. If any of these was true then it would be in the best interest for all to examine those absolute claims.

I began to study but eventually realized Jesus said he was the only way to the Father. Another absolute truth claim. This invited examination. If proven true then all other religions are automatically false. So I narrowed my examination.

Long story short I no longer doubt the Bible to be true, that Jesus was truly who He said He was. This anchors my faith."


LONG story short- YOU reasoned it out and used YOUR intellect to choose to be born again! That's not a straw man or assumption. Those are YOUR words.

Now to YOUR strawman. Much to the chagrin of my dear brothers in Christ who are Calvinists, I have never been, nor currently consider myself to be a Calvinist. I find TULIP interesting, but don't like Christianity boiled down to a system.

There is strong Biblical proofs however, for all the letters of the acronym except the "l". The only one I can even think of that supports the "L" has to be stretched and used with HUMAN logic to make it apply.(John 6) Whereas there are many passages that directly counter the "L".

So several pages and days later the only progress we have made in THE QUESTION - WHY do you believe? - is that you admit God found you, you didn't find Him.

I guess I might just have to be happy with that much.

But you are also wrong in thinking I believe those that think THEY chose God, instead of God choosing them, are lost. I just think they are immature Christians or just confused.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hebrews 11:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Here is both words in the same verse. If you look up faith and believe they are similar but have different definitions.

 

[John146]

Total Depravity - Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 10:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Where is this refuted in scripture?

Knowing this is what leads one to repent and believe the gospel. The goodness of God leads to repentance, understanding God is good and I am not.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Talk about stawmen! Woo baby! Somebody get me a match, cause we gonna have a bonfire!

First, I built no strawman. This is what YOU said: Roughsoul

"I began to study all major world religions but the evidence for most religions or beliefs was very poor. Most importantly the religions that make absolute truth claims like Heaven and Hell exist, makes us examine those even more closely. For example Buddhism or Atheism doesn't make a absolute truth claim like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam dealing with soul destination. If any of these was true then it would be in the best interest for all to examine those absolute claims.

I began to study but eventually realized Jesus said he was the only way to the Father. Another absolute truth claim. This invited examination. If proven true then all other religions are automatically false. So I narrowed my examination.

Long story short I no longer doubt the Bible to be true, that Jesus was truly who He said He was. This anchors my faith."


LONG story short- YOU reasoned it out and used YOUR intellect to choose to be born again! That's not a straw man or assumption. Those are YOUR words.

Now to YOUR strawman. Much to the chagrin of my dear brothers in Christ who are Calvinists, I have never been, nor currently consider myself to be a Calvinist. I find TULIP interesting, but don't like Christianity boiled down to a system.

There is strong Biblical proofs however, for all the letters of the acronym except the "l". The only one I can even think of that supports the "L" has to be stretched and used with HUMAN logic to make it apply.(John 6) Whereas there are many passages that directly counter the "L".

So several pages and days later the only progress we have made in THE QUESTION - WHY do you believe? - is that you admit God found you, you didn't find Him.

I guess I might just have to be happy with that much.

But you are also wrong in thinking I believe those that think THEY chose God, instead of God choosing them, are lost. I just think they are immature Christians or just confused.

God gave us a mind and set the laws of logic in place to be used. As seen in

Luke 14:28-32 English Standard Version (ESV)
28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

Isaiah 1:18 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 “Come now, let us reason[a] together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

Some have to wrestle with God just like Jacob it took all night to reach deliverance.

If you are not a Calvinist but hold belief in 4 of the points then you are very much in line with the Calvinist belief even though you cannot believe 4 but disbelieve 1 because they all are connected.

Not really expecting progress on your end but only on the readers end. They will decide who's arguments are more factual and persuasive.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

REFORMED DOCTRINE OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION​

ALIASES

Unmerited favor

Sovereign election





REFORMED CONVICTIONS ABOUT UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

• Adam sinned against God, and as the corporate head of all mankind caused the condemnation of all men.
• God chose to extend grace (unmerited favor) to certain descendants of Adam before the foundation of the world.
• He purposed to save only these individuals.
• These individuals are saved to belong to Christ and are given by the Father to the Son.
• His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part but was only based on his good pleasure and sovereign will.
• God gives the individuals he has selected to save the gift of faith.
• God gives new life to these individuals through joining them to Christ in faith.
• God’s choice of the sinner is the ultimate cause of their salvation.
• Sinners do not choose themselves, and God does not choose them ratifying their decision, as that would mean God doesn’t choose at all.
• God passes over those who are not saved, leaving them to their own devices and sinfulness.
• Election is a source of the believer’s strength, passion, praise and joy, and the teaching of election is in Scripture for this reason.
• Election is unconditional; salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith. Election is not equivalent to salvation.
• Faith and repentance are the effect of election. Regeneration of the elect causes faith and repentance, though.

FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

• The free-willer response to unconditional election is conditional election.
• God’s choice of certain individuals before the salvation of the world was based on foreseeing that they would respond to his call.
• He selected only those he knew would freely accept the gospel.
• Election is determined solely by what the man would decide in regards to salvation.
• The faith God foresaw was not given to the sinner by God and was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit but resulted solely from man’s will.
• It is entirely left up to man who would believe and therefore be elected for salvation.
• The sinner’s choice is ultimately the cause of his salvation, and not God’s choice.

NOTE: I am using the phrase free-willer to describe the Arminian position, as well as the position of many others with similar theology, simply to accommodate their preference. Some prefer to be called free-willers rather than Arminians, and I understand because I do not like to be called a Calvinist. By condescending to using this term, though, I do not intend to imply that Reformed theology teaches that man doesn’t have free will. Man has free will, but not libertarian free will like their version of free will. Man’s free will is limited by his fallen or regenerate nature, and in that sense, is not libertarian free will. Man’s free will is always subject to his nature, and is subordinate to God’s sovereign will.

I believe unconditional election Is the same as saying that JESUS's sacrifice for mansake made coming to HIM unconditional meaning that anyone could choose to accept/believe HIM or reject HIM.

Because of the weakness of the flesh they would always come short of the glory of GOD so then GOD counted all that try to be perfect with their own strength will come short or not be perfect the way that HE IS perfect

FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

• The free-willer response to unconditional election is conditional election.

I agree with this as far as when It comes to mans part..There Is no condition for GOD but Election IMO Is conditional for man.Conditioned on him (Any man) choosing to get saved or not by the grace of GOD through faith.

• God’s choice of certain individuals before the salvation of the world was based on foreseeing that they would respond to his call.
• GOD IS sovereign so then HE Would know who would CHOOSE HIM.GOD made Grace available but HE gave man a choice.
• He selected only those he knew would freely accept the gospel.
• 
  
• 
  
• That statement doesn't sound like HE really died for the whole world.Be honest If the bible says HE DIED for the whole world and you say HE decided to pick certain people over all people wouldn't that sound like someone that respects someone based on their personality or character or something
• physical?
• 
  
• 
  
• Election is determined solely by what the man would decide in regards to salvation.

I would agree with this statement If you are talking about the condition man must meet or conditional election.

• 
  
• The faith God foresaw was not given to the sinner by God and was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit but resulted solely from man’s will.

☺️I think you mean CHOICE.

• 
  
• It is entirely left up to man who would believe and therefore be elected for salvation.

I agree that man can choose or reject the grace HE provided.

• 
  
• The sinner’s choice is ultimately the cause of his salvation, and not God’s choice.

As long as the understanding that GOD In CHRIST standard was unconditional but man had to believe Amen.

 

[PennEd]

God gave us a mind and set the laws of logic in place to be used. As seen in

Luke 14:28-32 English Standard Version (ESV)
28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

Isaiah 1:18 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 “Come now, let us reason[a] together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

Some have to wrestle with God just like Jacob it took all night to reach deliverance.

If you are not a Calvinist but hold belief in 4 of the points then you are very much in line with the Calvinist belief even though you cannot believe 4 but disbelieve 1 because they all are connected.

Not really expecting progress on your end but only on the readers end. They will decide who's arguments are more factual and persuasive.

Imma again just be happy with the first 3 words of your post ; GOD GAVE US...

Be Blessed brother! Have a good weekend.

 

[Hevosmies]

I’m interested to hear from y’all, who do you think this verse is talking about, God’s elect?

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Oh yeah that one, easy, thats me! What charges was you gonna lay on me again? OH yeah NOTHING.

I tried to quote that to the judge, DIDNT HELP!

 

[John146]

Oh yeah that one, easy, thats me! What charges was you gonna lay on me again? OH yeah NOTHING.

I tried to quote that to the judge, DIDNT HELP!

Have you sinned? Can charge be held against you? The answer is yes. The context is plain.

The only one who has never sinned is God’s elect Jesus Christ (Isaiah 42). No charge can be held against Him because He knew no sin.

 

[John146]

Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

So there was a kingdom God prepared from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Soooo, a kingdom was prepared for God’s people and hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (not man).

Why? Because God is not willing that any perish.

 

[posthuman]

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible

Mark 4:11-12
And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Why does God do this 'lest they should be converted'??