Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?

[notuptome]

The first part of the thread explains general calling versus effectual calling.

The chosen (elect or chosen) are effectually called, and the reprobate (non-elect) are not effectually called.

As I described in the first part of the thread, no one denies that reprobates, and even some elect, resist the calling. Regeneration of the elect causes a willing response. God replaces the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and that is what causes faith and repentance. A heart of stone cannot generate faith and repentance.

The heart of stone is figurative not literal. Gods word can and does penetrate the heart of stone. You simply have nothing of merit to offer.

You are still insisting that the result is the cause. As they say correlation is not causation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The heart of stone is figurative not literal. Gods word can and does penetrate the heart of stone. You simply have nothing of merit to offer.

You are still insisting that the result is the cause. As they say correlation is not causation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You simply don't understand Scripture.

God takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh to enable the faith/repentance response.

And, God elects man to salvation. Man does not choose himself. Don't use the word "election"though because it implies God chooses.

No one is denying the use of figurative language. The heart of stone is a hard heart, not a heart of literal stone.

In fact, even the heart is a metaphor for the being of mankind. It is stone-cold dead and insensitive towards God. It needs to be made alive again.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

For those who are serious about examining the problems of the free willer position, which is the dominant one in evangelical Protestantism, I would recommend these two audios by Brian Borgman on SermonAudio:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=518101933226
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573

Brian has an entire set of audios on the basics of Reformed theology here:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=gracenevada&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=What+Is+Reformed+Theology?

Free willers run the gamut from Arminian to heretical Pelagianism.

They have overwhelmed Christianity in the USA due to Pentecostalism and Methodism, as well as the influence of the Pelagian evangelist, Charles Finney.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian....

Many are called, but few CHOSEN

Seems to me that some can and do resist!

By the way, when God says this:

Romans 9:19 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Do you stand up, and hold up your hand, and tell Paul that everyone can resist God's will?

This is a rhetorical question which demands the answer "none" (read the context) yet the free willer insists that all men can resist God's decretive will.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Not according to the overcooked Calvinists.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

By the way, when God says this:

Romans 9:19 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Do you stand up, and hold up your hand, and tell Paul that everyone can resist God's will?

This is a rhetorical question which demands the answer "none" (read the context) yet the free willer insists that all men can resist God's decretive will.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The doctrines of grace, which some call the Five Points of Calvinism (TULIP), are the topic of three other threads I’ve started.

More trolling for Calvin. Why don't you give it up and take your baggage to a forum for Reformed people? They will love it.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

More trolling for Calvin. Why don't you give it up and take your baggage to a forum for Reformed people? They will love it.

Ezekiel 18:25,29

 

[dcontroversal]

The first part of the thread explains general calling versus effectual calling.

The chosen (elect or chosen) are effectually called, and the reprobate (non-elect) are not effectually called.

As I described in the first part of the thread, no one denies that reprobates, and even some elect, resist the calling. Regeneration of the elect causes a willing response. God replaces the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and that is what causes faith and repentance. A heart of stone cannot generate faith and repentance.

The gifts and CALLING (SINGULAR) of GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.....calling IS NOT PLURAL

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The gifts and CALLING (SINGULAR) of GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.....calling IS NOT PLURAL

Here's the point...I'll try to make it simple.

There is a general call, and there is an effectual call.

This verse describes an effectual call, which is ALWAYS effective.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This reference to calling is in the golden chain of redemption, which is effectual and ALWAYS leads to ultimate glorification.

Matthew 22:14 4 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

This reference to calling is not always effectual, because it mentions FEW are chosen.

But, regardless of these references, the point is this: decisional regeneration teaches that a man with a heart of stone needs to produce faith and repentance from a heart of stone, in order to receive a heart of flesh.

This is backwards. God changes the heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, and faith and repentance flow from this heart of flesh.

Therefore, anyone who responds in faith and repentance is someone that God has regenerated before their faith and repentance. And, faith and repentance never fails to follow from regeneration.

I know that doesn't fit with Pentecostal or antinomian Baptist theology like the non-Reformed Southern Baptists teach. However, this is the Scriptural view. I'm talking about those guys who believe that saved people can never produce fruit, yet they are still believers...the anti-Lordship Salvation, easy-believism crowd.

Instead, they claim that the unregenerate man needs to dredge up faith and repentance from his stony, spiritually dead heart in order to be saved, and to receive a heart of flesh.

 

[dcontroversal]

By the way, when God says this:

Romans 9:19 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Do you stand up, and hold up your hand, and tell Paul that everyone can resist God's will?

This is a rhetorical question which demands the answer "none" (read the context) yet the free willer insists that all men can resist God's decretive will.

Are all men saved?

It is God's will that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE.....

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Are all men saved?

It is God's will that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE.....

Firstly, there are two different wills of God.

One is prescriptive, and the other is decretive.

If God decrees something, it happens for sure.

If God prescribes something, it doesn't always happen.

For instance, God's prescriptive will is that all keep his commandments, but that doesn't happen.

The salvation of the elect is decreed. It will happen because God has decreed it. The Scripture I quoted speaks of their salvation in past tense. God has already given those people to Jesus.

Secondly, the Scripture you are referring regarding all coming to repentance is talking about the recipients of the letter, who are members of the church. All of them will come to repentance. Some could be the elect who haven't came to faith yet, and others could be lapsed believers who need to be restored to relationship with God. God wants all the elect to come to repentance, and that is why Christ's return will not happen until all the elect are harvested.

That's another thing I don't like about anti-Lordship Southern Baptists. They claim that a believer can be in a state of disobedience, and never be restored, yet still be glorified. The Reformed position would be that God always restores these individuals to Him. They will persevere to the end.

That's why Baptists have membership rolls that are far larger in number than their attendees. They cut notches on their six guns for guys who "pray the prayer" regardless if they persevere or not. If they don't persevere, they aren't saved. Those guys are operating under a bad understanding of eternal security that is called "once saved always saved". It's different than the Reformed view of perseverance of the saints.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Are all men saved?

It is God's will that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE.....

Happy Veteran's Day and thanks for serving the country.

I'll answer any more replies to you tomorrow. I wouldn't want to disrespect you today but tomorrow you're fair game.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I am not a fan of the imaginary, emasculated god of free-willers.

thats' a disgusting way to observe your hatred for people who are not persuaded by the false doctrine you eschew

I don't think you actually have a proper fear of God because the God we believe in is THE God of the Bible

 

[Whispered]

thats' a disgusting way to observe your hatred for people who are not persuaded by the false doctrine you eschew

I don't think you actually have a proper fear of God because the God we believe in is THE God of the Bible

You are a wise soul. I know that you have figured out these threads that he has now promised will continue as he reiterates anew the entire acronym of the TULIP he pushes in other threads, that it is bait and has ever been bait, so as to exercise precisely what you observed of his nature.
He believes in the T because he is there.
And have you noted? There are ever more TULIP's joining anew this forum?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You are a wise soul. I know that you have figured out these threads that he has now promised will continue as he reiterates anew the entire acronym of the TULIP he pushes in other threads, that it is bait and has ever been bait, so as to exercise precisely what you observed of his nature.
He believes in the T because he is there.
And have you noted? There are ever more TULIP's joining anew this forum?

they are not known for their singular travels but must gather in flocks, small ones to be sure, as they are the smallest of Christian...and I say that lightly at this point but since the op has no shame whatsoever who cares...sects, to keep each others backs and to make it seem they are popular when in fact people leave that group because of the lack of love and the lack of understanding for anything but their own red stained Calvinistic doctrines

as I said in another post and what should also be noted, is the disrespect for women...and the desire that women should just shut up. Calvin had an extremely low regard for women, so God help the godly woman whose husband falls for this trap

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are you assuming the posture of a teacher?



I'm not interesting in being your disciple.

Exegete 1 Cor 1:26 ff for me.

How does God choose weak things, to demonstrate his glory, so there is no boasting, if free willers claim that God chooses NO ONE?

man the hypocrisy above is enough to make a person wretch

here you are, spewing false doctrine and creating numerous threads in which to boast about it and you actually have the tunnel vision combined with pride to state another should possibly teach? (even though he certainly was not doing so)

no one is interested in your gabbing and smearing but others of your ilk

the rest of us should probably just stop replying to the outrageous accusations and mockery

you are so full of yourself I don't think you would notice if no one ever replied again

you boast constantly so perhaps you are not chosen?

you share the spirit of your creator god, Calvin

 

[Whispered]

they are not known for their singular travels but must gather in flocks, small ones to be sure, as they are the smallest of Christian...and I say that lightly at this point but since the op has no shame whatsoever who cares...sects, to keep each others backs and to make it seem they are popular when in fact people leave that group because of the lack of love and the lack of understanding for anything but their own red stained Calvinistic doctrines

as I said in another post and what should also be noted, is the disrespect for women...and the desire that women should just shut up. Calvin had an extremely low regard for women, so God help the godly woman whose husband falls for this trap

Amen.
Perhaps that is why the defenders of TULIP, when they think it is a woman who rejects through proper Exegesis the falsity of TULIP, Calvinism, and the RT Denominations that adhere to TULIP, are mocked and ridiculed more than what appears to be a male member renouncing the formula in the proper way as well.
Don't doubt that the mighty little one's shall make for themselves more troops so as to appear as an army of the dread flower, exponentially. They don't post so as to introduce themselves, they just jump right in sounding exactly like the TULIP troops we already know.
Fascinating. And on the 8th day God said, let there be clones for false doctrine? Never! Tragic that for that one it is a game of something to do, when in truth souls are eternal and this life passes away.
Then what?
They shall see.
Sadly, they shall see.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The two big obstacles to admiring Calvin are a chill authoritarianism and his repulsive doctrine of double predestination.

Worse, if true, is a doctrine of predestination that puts men and women in eternal fire by God's long-laid plan. It is not that some kind of predestination is untenable. If people go to heaven by God's grace, his gratuitous gift must have been decided from all eternity. That is different from God creating people with the intention of sending them to hell.
Christopher Howse

 

[Whispered]

man the hypocrisy above is enough to make a person wretch

here you are, spewing false doctrine and creating numerous threads in which to boast about it and you actually have the tunnel vision combined with pride to state another should possibly teach? (even though he certainly was not doing so)

no one is interested in your gabbing and smearing but others of your ilk

the rest of us should probably just stop replying to the outrageous accusations and mockery

you are so full of yourself I don't think you would notice if no one ever replied again

you boast constantly so perhaps you are not chosen?

you share the spirit of your creator god, Calvin

Calvin was not a creator god. I would submit he was a spawn of the anti-god.

And come time, John C. shall reap what he sewed. The duty of the Christians who follow the message of the Christ is done, at least as far as this Christian is concerned. Let that which prefers the left path journey forewarned. If God's words cannot reach them, who am I to think I shall have a chance to open eyes sealed by the dry blooms of a dead flower? [Bless you brother if you endure. You are a stronger chiclet than myself.

See what I did there? Humor, in the wake of darkness. LAUGH and the world laughs with you. Cry and the enemy wins. ]

The Book of Revelation chapter 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Book of Matthew chapter 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God is love. John C. did not now this.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Amen.
Perhaps that is why the defenders of TULIP, when they think it is a woman who rejects through proper Exegesis the falsity of TULIP, Calvinism, and the RT Denominations that adhere to TULIP, are mocked and ridiculed more than what appears to be a male member renouncing the formula in the proper way as well.
Don't doubt that the mighty little one's shall make for themselves more troops so as to appear as an army of the dread flower, exponentially. They don't post so as to introduce themselves, they just jump right in sounding exactly like the TULIP troops we already know.
Fascinating. And on the 8th day God said, let there be clones for false doctrine? Never! Tragic that for that one it is a game of something to do, when in truth souls are eternal and this life passes away.
Then what?
They shall see.
Sadly, they shall see.

I'm trying to find a quote I read the other day...from Calvin...wherein he compared women to asses and some other animal and stated that God was punishing the disciples for their unbelief by having women at the tomb and Mary seeing Christ
first

as we take a look at how the Savior these Calvinists say they esteem, treated women and elevated them, the only conclusion that can be reached is that they do not seek to emulate Christ but seek instead to copy their little god and worship him by doing what he did