Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#114,541
#114,541
No conjecture... it is you that is not digging deep enough into the written expression of the writer that is far different than any other writer in the New Testament.

As well you are missing the entire context of the purpose of the letter, written to Saved Hebrews returning to the old system of sacrifice.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#114,543
#114,543
Judges1318 said:
Another reason righteous works of the law can't secure salvation is there were various sins for which the law made no provision for forgiveness or second chances. For example, sinning defiantly.

Numbers 15:30-31 NIV
"anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them."

But in the New Covenant, all transgressions can be forgiven.

Acts 13:28-39 NIV
"through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

This does not mean you can sin defiantly against Christ and his commands and not seek forgiveness for that and get away with it in this New Covenant. It means you can confess the sin of defiance and the blood of Jesus is able to cover it. The law was not able to cover it. It did not contain a prescribed sacrifice that would cover that.

This New Covenant is looking better all the time. :)


Now Hebrews 10:26-29 does speak of the harsh penalty for defiant sin, too.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

But just to be clear, the difference is now you can be forgiven of that sin in this New Covenant. At least up until you reject his call to repentance to the point of no return that God has established when God turns you over to the hardness of your heart and does not allow you to come to repentance.

Unconfessed, hardened, defiant rejection of Christ and his commands is the one thing that, ultimately, can not be forgiven. I believe you can die guilty of various sins in this New Covenant, but clearly that sin is not one of them. Ultimately, if not confessed and repented of in the space of time God provides, it is unforgivable and will not be overlooked. This is talking about a defiant rejection of Christ and choosing to live in willful, defiant, unrepentant sin. This is not about sinning out of ignorance or weakness or immaturity.
Click to expand...
You know it is belief upon the completed work of Christ Jesus that saves.... which completely destroys what you have written in the last paragraph.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#114,544
#114,544
dcontroversal said:
They absolutely cannot comprehend that truth........the gifts (plural) and calling (singular) of God is IRREVOCABLE......they cannot grasp the truth of this statement.....there are so many truths that must be ignored and or taken out of context to peddle a false gospel that either has us earning it, keeping it, maintaining it or that it can be lost.....It is pure evil to degrade Christ, his work, his power, his promises and the eternal life given by him through faith and grace......it really does call or imply that both The Heavenly Father and His Son are liars......
Click to expand...
It is pure evil :(

I can barely stand to read some "worker" posts ... always goes like this...

"Of course my works will not save me, I agree completely, BUT they keep me saved"
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#114,545
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
#114,545
EleventhHour said:
It is pure evil :(

I can barely stand to read some "worker" posts ... always goes like this...

"Of course my works will not save me, I agree completely, BUT they keep me saved"
Click to expand...
I call that “type 2 works salvation.” Then you also have those who say we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” works. :cautious:
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#114,546
#114,546
mailmandan said:
I call that “type 2 works salvation.” Then you also have those who say we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” works. :cautious:
Click to expand...
Excellent, excellent point and term, I may have to use it from time to time....I will give you credit of course :)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#114,547
#114,547
stillness said:
Dont think that I disagre with yo or with God. "Without Love I am nothing." What is going on here in this not by works page is a confusion of language hat remains until we walk in the Love of Christ: The new comandment, "That you Love one another, as I have Loved you; that you also Love one another." Until then, we are divided (Babes in Christ are divided) and there is room for the autor of confusion.
Click to expand...
Incorrect.....People who hold to, or promote false doctrine are the ones that are causing division, and some may be immature in their faith.

Just do answer one thing clearly and I mean very clearly.... If a person asked, "how may I be saved?"

What would you tell the person?"
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#114,548
#114,548
Judges1318 said:
But wasn't it you who said the illuminated people in Hebrews 6:4 are not saved?
Click to expand...
1. When did we discuss hebrews? Have you been here under another name?
2. hebrews says they were enlightened, or had the light shown on them it does not say they had illumination where they actually understood because they were born of god, huge difference.

romans 1 said although they knew god..

Everyone can know god through his creation and the work of god, but having a complete understanding “being illuminated” only the born again can claim this
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#114,549
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#114,549
Judges1318 said:
Unconfessed, hardened, defiant rejection of Christ and his commands is the one thing that, ultimately, can not be forgiven. I believe you can die guilty of various sins in this New Covenant, but clearly that sin is not one of them. Ultimately, if not confessed and repented of in the space of time God provides, it is unforgivable and will not be overlooked. This is talking about a defiant rejection of Christ and choosing to live in willful, defiant, unrepentant sin. This is not about sinning out of ignorance or weakness or immaturity.
Click to expand...
EleventhHour said:
You know it is belief upon the completed work of Christ Jesus that saves....
Click to expand...
Which is exactly what makes salvation a free gift and not payment owed for performing the righteous works of the law.

Judges1318 said:
...which completely destroys what you have written in the last paragraph.
Click to expand...
Please 'illuminate' me with an explanation. :unsure:
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#114,550
#114,550
EleventhHour said:
Let me refine, they were saved and stayed saved.
Click to expand...
I disagree

they were never saved, and stayed unsaved

tbeir true faith was in the law, its why they went back

they never fell away, that was a question if they fall away (if it were possible) they could never be renewed. And even the thought that salvation can be lost (which the law says) puts Christ to shame
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#114,551
#114,551
EleventhHour said:
Being enlightened and illuminated are metaphors for knowledge.
Those who are respond to the knowledge with belief become saved.

I like my words better.

Heb. 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

And these people responded to the knowledge and became believers.
Click to expand...
or they partook through blessing by association by true believers,

which is why we see many unbelievers who love to hang out in church, they partake in the Hs blessings even though they have never been saved
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#114,552
#114,552
stillness said:
and if Dcontroversial felt it was off toic to clear up that Grace is the influence of God to do the work off God, what then?

"I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Philipians 3:14
Are you saying that only Paul gets the prize?

"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize."
The prise, "Christ in you the hope of glory (Resurrection)."
Not all believers have part in the first Resurrection.

"Isaw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended). This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
Click to expand...
Yep

you try to earn grace

grace can not be earned, else it is not grace, it is works.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#114,553
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#114,553
eternally-gratefull said:
1. When did we discuss hebrews? Have you been here under another name?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry. I went back to the post where I thought you said it and I see, based on the rest of our discussion, that you were probably addressing the first part of my post concerning the Ephesians passage, not the second part about the Hebrews.
We're good. :)

eternally-gratefull said:
2. hebrews says they were enlightened, or had the light shown on them it does not say they had illumination where they actually understood because they were born of god, huge difference.
Click to expand...
All called people are illuminated by the testimony of the Holy Spirit (the testimony of the Spirit about Jesus IS the illumination). Some of the called choose to retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus in their heart and are saved and receive the promise of eternal life. Others choose not to retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus in their heart and do not receive the promise.

1 John 5:6-12 NIV
"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

Now Hebrews 6:4 itself does not specify if the illuminated Hebrews he is talking to are the illuminated people who retain the testimony of God in their heart and are saved, or whether they are the illuminated people who have not retained the testimony of God. That information comes from other passages in Hebrews.


eternally-gratefull said:
romans 1 said although they knew god..

Everyone can know god through his creation and the work of god, but having a complete understanding “being illuminated” only the born again can claim this
Click to expand...
I agree that those who don't have the specific message from the scriptures about the Messiah and obedience to God (see Romans 2:12) have far less of a revelation of God than those who do. But among those who do have the scriptures and to whom the Holy Spirit has testified about the Son they are illuminated equally (within the scope of the talent given, of course). But only some of these people educated and illuminated by the Holy Spirit about the Son in scripture retain what they have received and are saved. The rest cast the revelation of the gospel behind them and are lost.

So it's not a matter of being 'illuminated vs. not-illuminated, or not so illuminated'. It's about what people do with the illumination of the Holy Spirit they have received.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#114,554
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
#114,554
Judges1318 said:
I'm sorry. I went back to the post where I thought you said it and I see, based on the rest of our discussion, that you were probably addressing the first part of my post concerning the Ephesians passage, not the second part about the Hebrews.
We're good. :)


All called people are illuminated by the testimony of the Holy Spirit (the testimony of the Spirit about Jesus IS the illumination). Some of the called choose to retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus in their heart and are saved and receive the promise of eternal life. Others choose not to retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus in their heart and do not receive the promise.

1 John 5:6-12 NIV
"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

Now Hebrews 6:4 itself does not specify if the illuminated Hebrews he is talking to are the illuminated people who retain the testimony of God in their heart and are saved, or whether they are the illuminated people who have not retained the testimony of God. That information comes from other passages in Hebrews.



I agree that those who don't have the specific message from the scriptures about the Messiah and obedience to God (see Romans 2:12) have far less of a revelation of God than those who do. But among those who do have the scriptures and to whom the Holy Spirit has testified about the Son they are illuminated equally (within the scope of the talent given, of course). But only some of these people educated and illuminated by the Holy Spirit about the Son in scripture retain what they have received and are saved. The rest cast the revelation of the gospel behind them and are lost.

So it's not a matter of being 'illuminated vs. not-illuminated, or not so illuminated'. It's about what people do with the illumination of the Holy Spirit they have received.
Click to expand...
Is illumination different from enlightenment?
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#114,555
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#114,555
eternally-gratefull said:
or they partook through blessing by association by true believers,

which is why we see many unbelievers who love to hang out in church, they partake in the Hs blessings even though they have never been saved
Click to expand...
There are lost people who have heard the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and rejected it, and there are lost people who have not heard the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The difference is, one group has no excuse. The other group still have the hope of the Holy Spirit revealing the truthfulness of the gospel to them and retaining it and being saved.

Being illuminated does not automatically mean saved. It means you have heard the testimony of the Holy Spirit himself, not just heard man's testimony about God, and not just 'heard' the testimony about God given through nature and conscience.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#114,559
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#114,559
eternally-gratefull said:
I disagree

they were never saved, and stayed unsaved

tbeir true faith was in the law, its why they went back

they never fell away, that was a question if they fall away (if it were possible) they could never be renewed. And even the thought that salvation can be lost (which the law says) puts Christ to shame
Click to expand...
The Galatians were saved, yet they turned back to the law of "days and months and seasons and years" for justification (Galatians 4:10) and fell away from Christ. How does that align with what you have stated above?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.