All Sufficient Blood of Christ

[7seasrekeyed]

I think all those men I quoted explain overwhelmingly clear.

what men?

and are you Catholic? it sounds as though you might be

not arguing with you, but really have not made yourself clear

mass, is not a Protestant institution and frankly I do not see it as Christian either

if you have nothing more to say but quick retorts I guess we will have to just leave it at that

 

[7seasrekeyed]

​

I like that observation hubby made. Great insight and something I didn't think about either. People try to understand the way God sees things from a human perspective.
And shouldn't we know better than that. God is a spirit, the Holy Spirit. He is not a man that He should lie. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and The Word was God.

Those spliced together excerpts from scripture, just a few that describe God, should tell us in the full context of just that excerpt, that how man defines chosen, is not how God saw those He foreknew would choose Him. Foresight. God is all knowing, all powerful, everyplace at the same time eternally, and the only creator of all that is, was, or shall ever be.

Pride and vanity are dangerous sins. Imagine little tiny us specks in all the universes and galaxies that exist, daring to think we are predestined by that which gave life to the mere images Hubble returns to our gaze, that only a select collection of human dust would be His robots.
Made in the image and the likeness of the Borg.

I think not.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

well the heavens declare the glory of God, our God!

so yeah!

there is nothing and no one to whom we can compare God

the borg, eh? cubism?

 

[Whispered]

well the heavens declare the glory of God, our God!

so yeah!

there is nothing and no one to whom we can compare God

the borg, eh? cubism?

Quite frankly Louis Vauxcelles did not come to mind. I was thinking more along the lines of the Star Trek nemesis, The Borg. Assimilation of cultures, implantation of nano-probes so as to manifest a hive mind collective.

 

[Whispered]

Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for our sins, we have a participatory role in this new covenant as Jesus told us at the Last Supper. Jesus' death happened once, but His sacrifice to the Father is heavenly, it is perpetual. In heaven, Jesus' sacrifice never ends. It is always and forever being presented in front of the Father for our sins.

We see in the Didache of our participatory role in this in section 14.
1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

We are participating in the sacrifice. Just as in the OT, they sacrificed lambs to God for their sins but they had to eat of the lamb. Jesus transformed the OT passover, and takes the place of the sacrificial lamb for our sake, but we need to participate in that passover and eat His body and drink His blood in the Eucharist, which happens at every Holy Mass around the world. The Holy Mass and Jesus present in the Eucharist is the New Testament/Covenant. It is not a document or a book. Jesus said to do this... in Greek those words, Do this, mean offer the sacrifice.

7 has her answer. You are Catholic.
When I read you enter the Didache into this discussion, and as you tell us Jesus makes a perpetual sacrifice in Heaven of Jesus never ends, I pictured Jesus dying over and over and over again on a cross in the ethereal plane every time a sinner repented and chose to follow Him.
And then I wondered about the Book of John chapter 19 when my Savior said, prior to giving up the spirit to the Father, "it is finished."
And how those words from the Lamb's lips are reconciled if one believes, much less teaches, even in Eucharist form, that those words applied only to His suffering here. More to come once He ascended to the Father.

Any thoughts?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Quite frankly Louis Vauxcelles did not come to mind. I was thinking more along the lines of the Star Trek nemesis, The Borg. Assimilation of cultures, implantation of nano-probes so as to manifest a hive mind collective.

haha

I knew that

 

[7seasrekeyed]

7 has her answer. You are Catholic.
When I read you enter the Didache into this discussion, and as you tell us Jesus makes a perpetual sacrifice in Heaven of Jesus never ends, I pictured Jesus dying over and over and over again on a cross in the ethereal plane every time a sinner repented and chose to follow Him.
And then I wondered about the Book of John chapter 19 when my Savior said, prior to giving up the spirit to the Father, "it is finished."
And how those words from the Lamb's lips are reconciled if one believes, much less teaches, even in Eucharist form, that those words applied only to His suffering here. More to come once He ascended to the Father.

Any thoughts?

well it seems he has put up a shield...no reason for it IMO

I figured but, better to ask

anyway...

 

[Whispered]

haha

I knew that

We seriously need a winky reaction for the "Like" button.

 

[Crusader4IHS]

7 has her answer. You are Catholic.
When I read you enter the Didache into this discussion, and as you tell us Jesus makes a perpetual sacrifice in Heaven of Jesus never ends, I pictured Jesus dying over and over and over again on a cross in the ethereal plane every time a sinner repented and chose to follow Him.
And then I wondered about the Book of John chapter 19 when my Savior said, prior to giving up the spirit to the Father, "it is finished."
And how those words from the Lamb's lips are reconciled if one believes, much less teaches, even in Eucharist form, that those words applied only to His suffering here. More to come once He ascended to the Father.

Any thoughts?

Jesus only died once! Our concept of time does not exist in heaven. The sacrifice of Jesus in heaven is eternal. It is continual, not over and over but just IS. In the mass, we are representing the sacrifice and taking part in it. As we see in Revelation, Jesus is seen as the lamb on the altar. That is the mass on earth. The mass is where heaven and earth connect.

 

[Crusader4IHS]

what men?
The church fathers I quoted.
and are you Catholic? it sounds as though you might be

not arguing with you, but really have not made yourself clear

mass, is not a Protestant institution and frankly I do not see it as Christian either

if you have nothing more to say but quick retorts I guess we will have to just leave it at that

You asked in your opening if there is a connection with the OT sacrifice. I answered that by asserting how there is that connection. We do not do away with the OT, Jesus transforms it and makes it perfect.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As we see in Revelation, Jesus is seen as the lamb on the altar.

Nah, the text states this instead:

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth." ["...a Lamb STANDING as HAVING BEEN slain"... but now (in this scene) "STANDING" … and this, "in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders"]

 

[Crusader4IHS]

Nah, the text states this instead:

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth."

Yes, and the seven horns and eyes representing the seven churches

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Jesus only died once! Our concept of time does not exist in heaven. The sacrifice of Jesus in heaven is eternal. It is continual, not over and over but just IS. In the mass, we are representing the sacrifice and taking part in it. As we see in Revelation, Jesus is seen as the lamb on the altar. That is the mass on earth. The mass is where heaven and earth connect.

would you not agree that Jesus is no longer on the cross?

our concept of time does not exist for God period. I have said that a good number of times in this forum

we do not remember the sacrifice. we believe that Jesus plainly said to remember Him...which entails the sacrifice, but we do not connect with the sacrifice for we cannot. it was once for all but is for all time as you say

I would disagree that heaven and earth connect in the mass

but please note. I do not wish this to turn into a Catholic vs Protestant debate

I will leave whoever wishes to do that, to themselves and start a new thread if I can

 

[Crusader4IHS]

would you not agree that Jesus is no longer on the cross?

our concept of time does not exist for God period. I have said that a good number of times in this forum

we do not remember the sacrifice. we believe that Jesus plainly said to remember Him...which entails the sacrifice, but we do not connect with the sacrifice for we cannot. it was once for all but is for all time as you say

I would disagree that heaven and earth connect in the mass

but please note. I do not wish this to turn into a Catholic vs Protestant debate

I will leave whoever wishes to do that, to themselves and start a new thread if I can

Jesus is no longer on the cross! Like I said, he died once. Jesus was fully human and fully divine. His humanity perished on the cross with intense suffering and pain. His sacrifice for our salvation is forever, perpetually offered to the Father for the debt we could never pay.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You asked in your opening if there is a connection with the OT sacrifice. I answered that by asserting how there is that connection. We do not do away with the OT, Jesus transforms it and makes it perfect.

here is yr post I think you are referring to? post 8

The NT is a transformation of the OT. It is Jesus being both human and divine making things of OT perfect in Him in NT.
The parallels are endless.
Jesus is the new Isaac
Jesus is the new Adam
Jesus is new Moses leading a new exodus to new Jerusalem which is heaven
Jesus is also the heavenly bread which He gives to His people to eat on their exodus to heavenly kingdom
Jesus is the Davidic King

you believe these are the church fathers? how can they be church fathers when they lived a few thousand years before there was a church?

the New Testament is a new Covenant

the old Covenant is over and we have a new Covenant

those who refuse Christ are still under the judgement of the old

if a person accepts Christ as the propitiation for their sins they have entered into the new Covenant

as I said though, I am not interested in debating the difference between Catholicism and what myself and others here believe, as non Catholics

 

[Whispered]

Personally, I do not think your OP deserves a re-do so that a likely Catholic vs. Protestant debate may ensue having derailed the OP.
Perhaps those inclined to continue where Crusader began that fork in the proverbial road in this thread could choose to follow them to a thread of their own making. To continue in the vein of thought they introduced here into yours.


Thoughts?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Jesus is no longer on the cross! Like I said, he died once. Jesus was fully human and fully divine. His humanity perished on the cross with intense suffering and pain. His sacrifice for our salvation is forever, perpetually offered to the Father for the debt we could never pay.

oh I got what you said

did you understand what I said? because I meant it

this thread is not to debate Catholic beliefs

feel free to discuss what the op is actually about

 

[Whispered]

Yes, and the seven horns and eyes representing the seven churches

For reference should this thread go either way, and it isn't easy to find a seven hornedm many eyed, slain lamb standing, let me tell ya.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Personally, I do not think your OP deserves a re-do so that a likely Catholic vs. Protestant debate may ensue having derailed the OP.
Perhaps those inclined to continue where Crusader began that fork in the proverbial road in this thread could choose to follow them to a thread of their own making. To continue in the vein of thought they introduced here into yours.


Thoughts?

oh I have a few LOL!

see how important it is to discuss the op?

the blood of Christ is not a subject certain entities enjoy being discussed

 

[Crusader4IHS]

Here are the men I quoted and no they didn't live before Christ. It is clear you didn't expand my response to read it, you just responded.

“There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish; but what good are these for so many.” – St. Andrew the Apostle, 1st century A.D.

“But let no one eat or drink of the Eucharist except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for the Lord has also spoken concerning this: ‘Do not give what is holy to dogs.’” – The Didache, late 1st century A.D

“Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” – St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107-110

“For we do not receive these things as common bread nor common drink; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior having been incarnate by God’s logos took both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food eucharistized through the word of prayer that is from Him, from which our blood and flesh are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who became incarnate. – St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, A.D. 151-155

“For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.” – St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 177-183
“We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.” – Origen, Against Celsus, A.D. 248

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ.” – St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, A.D. 348-350
“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ….When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body. – St. Athanasius of Alexandria, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, A.D. 373
“Now we, as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterious efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and the Blood, ‘do show the Lord’s Death.’” – St. Ambrose of Milan, On the Christian Faith, A.D. 378-379
“It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. ‘This is my body,’ he says. This word transforms the things offered. – St. John Chrysostom, Against the Judaizers, A.D. 386-387

“How was Christ carried in His Own Hands? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in like manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.’” – St. Augustine, Exposition on the Psalms, A.D. 396-420

“He did not say, ‘This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” – St.Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew, A.D. 400-415

“For when the Lord says, ‘unless you have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and drunk His blood, you will not have life in you,’ you ought so to be partakers at the Holy Table, as to have no doubt whatever concerning the reality of Christ’s Body and Blood.” – St. Leo the Great, Sermon 91, A.D. mid-5th century

 

[Crusader4IHS]

here is yr post I think you are referring to? post 8




you believe these are the church fathers? how can they be church fathers when they lived a few thousand years before there was a church?

the New Testament is a new Covenant

the old Covenant is over and we have a new Covenant

those who refuse Christ are still under the judgement of the old

if a person accepts Christ as the propitiation for their sins they have entered into the new Covenant

as I said though, I am not interested in debating the difference between Catholicism and what myself and others here believe, as non Catholics

It is absolutely of zero significance if Catholic beliefs are being presented. We have every member of this forum quoting and interpreting scripture. So you have no grounds to dismiss the reflection based on where they come from, you can respond openly in civil dialogue.

The word covenant means testament. So the New Testament is the same as saying New Covenant. Now can you tell me what that covenant is?