What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[presidente]

Who are the 144,000 tribulation witnesses in Revelation 7?

I believing they are Israelites like the passage says. I do not allegoricalize that away. But a multitude from the nations come out of the great tribulation. I'm not sure when the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is complete-- maybe during this time period or at the end of it.

 

[bluto]

I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be! I really think I will be dead before Messiah return, the rapture or the tribulation... but if not I like the idea of per-trib so why not believe in pre-trib. If it is not just die for Messiah. The idea of being torchered for Messiah, sucks, or torcherd for anything, but I am lucky I am type one diabetic so if I do not get insulin I will go into a coma and die pretty quickly anyway.... I am a lucky duck if it is post-trib and if it is in my lifetime. I kind of feel bad for the people who cannot die of natural causes like me!!

What "fantasy" world are you living in when you said the following: "I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be!" That's like saying, "I'm going to whistle in the dark hoping the dark will go away." This is nothing more than "wishful thinking?"

And why are you throwing your arms up in the air giving up? I watched my mom die right in front of me in a nursing home from type one diabetes and she never gave up. She was an encouragement to others where she was at. I understand you are "musing" but it is God who is in control so try and be an encouragement to others even in pre-death or in death itself. In fact, one of the thief's on the cross with Jesus ended up being an encouragement to others even to this day.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Melach]

What "fantasy" world are you living in when you said the following: "I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be!" That's like saying, "I'm going to whistle in the dark hoping the dark will go away." This is nothing more than "wishful thinking?"

And why are you throwing your arms up in the air giving up? I watched my mom die right in front of me in a nursing home from type one diabetes and she never gave up. She was an encouragement to others where she was at. I understand you are "musing" but it is God who is in control so try and be an encouragement to others even in pre-death or in death itself. In fact, one of the thief's on the cross with Jesus ended up being an encouragement to others even to this day.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

your mom is a strong woman God bless you friend

 

[John146]

I believing they are Israelites like the passage says. I do not allegoricalize that away. But a multitude from the nations come out of the great tribulation. I'm not sure when the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is complete-- maybe during this time period or at the end of it.

Why isn’t the Church called to be witnesses during this time? Oh, that’s right...they’re gone!

 

[garee]

I love reading your posts brother. Notice also during the first trumpet it says all green grass was burned up, that will be a disaster when it comes to agriculture, going to be very tough surviving that alone.

Post-tribbers play down the severity of the trumpets and vials. I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".

When confronted with the Darby nonsense, I say the first post-tribbers in Church history were the ones who were telling the Thessalonians something that shook their minds and Paul had to send them a letter to correct them saying the day of the Lord is not yet, do not let your hearts be troubled. Why would their minds be troubled about the Second Coming? It would be a moment to rejoice, not something to be shaken up about.

I do not base my faith on the Church fathers, but even in there you can find some imminent return passages and a few plain statements that says Church is caught up from this prior to the tribulation. Anyone who is interested can google the quotes.

Dispensational pre-trib doctrine is like carefully organizing verses putting Bible truths in the right time period and looking at who is spoken to. That is why the so much quoted Matthew 24:29-31 is in no way proof against the pre-trib Rapture.
This event is the same as in Isaiah, where a trumpet is blown and the elect are gathered, no mention of a resurrection, no mention of dead in Christ rising first, they are gathered to Jerusalem not to the Father's house in heaven.

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer. The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation. Even Martin Luther struggled with understanding it, precisely because of his roman catholic background.

I notice an increase in interest to prophecy each time there is a revival happening and God is moving.

We read literally as literature but because the language is signified we look to the signified understanding or interpretation according to the prescriptions. . Like without parables Christ spoke not. Or we look to the eternal not seen not the temporal seen .Which is need to rightly divide the parables to uncover the hiding gospel understanding. .

Literalizing the signified simply makes the unseen spirit understanding to no effect in parables. Like the signified language in Revelation 20. We know there is not literal key or literal chain that can bind a lying spirit . or a literal key that can loose those bound by lies. It simply represent s the gospel .The power to bind and loose. Many metaphors in that parable.

Disregarding the hermeneutics in the opening passage reveals much..

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

The Amil position (one used at the reformation) works best to understand the "last day" references. Others either take away or add leaving the last day a mystery . Some end time ideas the church disappears and reappear as in reincarnation removing the. . and signified . as if it was a literal translation. And in doing so remove the signified tongue of God out of all book that has the most signified understanding. . . it needing the rest of the Bible to understand its signified work.

Comparing the unseen eternal, to the unseen eternal spirit understanding , or refered to as "faith to faith". The power of the gospel the binding loosening key signified in Revelation 20.

 

[presidente]

Why isn’t the Church called to be witnesses during this time? Oh, that’s right...they’re gone!

The saints are the church. Jewish people can be a part of the church, too... oh yeah... like in the first century.

II Thessalonians 1 has the 'church' here when Jesus gets back to execute vengence on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints.

 

[John146]

I believing they are Israelites like the passage says. I do not allegoricalize that away. But a multitude from the nations come out of the great tribulation. I'm not sure when the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is complete-- maybe during this time period or at the end of it.

Israel shall be saved out of it, not from it.

Jeremiah 30
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

That day, the time of Jacob’s trouble, is a day of wrath.

Zephaniah 1
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The Church is not appointed for this time of wrath, the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Church has obtained salvation through Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[John146]

The saints are the church. Jewish people can be a part of the church, too... oh yeah... like in the first century.

II Thessalonians 1 has the 'church' here when Jesus gets back to execute vengence on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints.

In that day, His glory shall be revealed. The world will see Jesus in all His glory and His bride with Him. That’s the great revelation.

 

[John146]

The saints are the church. Jewish people can be a part of the church, too... oh yeah... like in the first century.

II Thessalonians 1 has the 'church' here when Jesus gets back to execute vengence on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints.

Why only the two witnesses and 144,000 witnesses? Where’s the Church?

 

[presidente]

That day, the time of Jacob’s trouble, is a day of wrath.

Zephaniah 1
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The Church is not appointed for this time of wrath, the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Church has obtained salvation through Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If the church is on the earth during a time of God's wrath, that does not mean that God is angry at the church. This is a rather weak argument for pre-trib.

How is that justification for creating another 'second coming' of Christ? It is not like you can find a passage that lays out a sequence of events and show where the rapture occurs during that sequence of events, like in Revelation or Matthew 24-- not without making a ridiculous argument.

 

[Melach]

If the church is on the earth during a time of God's wrath, that does not mean that God is angry at the church. This is a rather weak argument for pre-trib.

How is that justification for creating another 'second coming' of Christ? It is not like you can find a passage that lays out a sequence of events and show where the rapture occurs during that sequence of events, like in Revelation or Matthew 24-- not without making a ridiculous argument.

where in revelation you see the rapture? if you follow matthew 24 and revelation it looks like after the seals there is sun and moon darkened and then people in heaven who came from tribulation.

but also it cant happen before the 7th trumpet because last trumpet. revelation isnt written in order sadly

 

[John146]

If the church is on the earth during a time of God's wrath, that does not mean that God is angry at the church. This is a rather weak argument for pre-trib.

How is that justification for creating another 'second coming' of Christ? It is not like you can find a passage that lays out a sequence of events and show where the rapture occurs during that sequence of events, like in Revelation or Matthew 24-- not without making a ridiculous argument.

If the Church is on earth, then why aren’t they called to be witnesses? Why raise up the two prophets and 144,000 male Jews?

Nobody is claiming two second comings. Christ does not come to earth during the rapture. The Church meets Him in the clouds in the air.

Again, the Church would not be on earth at the time of Jacob’s trouble because the majority of the Church has died and is present with the Lord. If at all, it would be just a small part of Christ’s body left behind. And would that make sense?

 

[presidente]

If the Church is on earth, then why aren’t they called to be witnesses? Why raise up the two prophets and 144,000 male Jews?

Show me where Jewish believers are not part of the church and where Revelation says the chuch are not called to be witnesses, and then we will talk. I find your line of reasoning to be incredibly weak.

Nobody is claiming two second comings. Christ does not come to earth during the rapture. The Church meets Him in the clouds in the air.

The 'parousia' is dubbed the 'second coming' or the 'coming' of Christ. In I Thessalonians 4, the resurrection and rapture occurs at the parousia/coming of Christ. in I Corinthianas 15, they that are his are made alive 'at his coming'. In II Thessalonians 2, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of his coming/parousia. What is the justification for making multiple parousia's?

Again, the Church would not be on earth at the time of Jacob’s trouble because the majority of the Church has died and is present with the Lord. If at all, it would be just a small part of Christ’s body left behind. And would that make sense?

How is this an argument in favor of pre-trib?

 

[presidente]

where in revelation you see the rapture? if you follow matthew 24 and revelation it looks like after the seals there is sun and moon darkened and then people in heaven who came from tribulation.

but also it cant happen before the 7th trumpet because last trumpet. revelation isnt written in order sadly

Other scripture puts the rapture at the parousia.

 

[Absolutely]

I believe the kingdom of heaven is the promised earthly kingdom where Christ rules in Jerusalem on the throne of David.

Jesus is king now.

I have shown paulines that in the past.

Not sure why they teach that or the efforts to nullify the non pauline books.

 

[Absolutely]

The only proof comes from denied context, denied verbiage, denied definitions of words, verses yanked out of context, a misapplication of the word of God, a denial of what the word saints actually means, the complete ignorance of Revelation being written to churches, denial of the word KEPT in Revelation, regurgitated error, false teachers, misapplication of the bible, ignorantly making wrath and tribulation the same thing etc......

I was raised in that farce, had it crammed down my throat with no factual evidence, believed it and peddled it just like most do today.... and at the end of the day the bible does not support a pre-tribulation ingathering.....it does support a pre-wrath ingathering....

Nope

You must reframe verses to remove what Jesus said and rev 14.

Postrib error hands down

 

[Absolutely]

Other scripture puts the rapture at the parousia.

At the second coming ,rev 19, Jesus comes WITH the saints.

No white horse uturn

 

[Absolutely]

You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

The purpose of the gt is not bride purification.
The bride is taken
The bride is gentile
The Jews "naomi" are gathered during the gt.
Notice that it is through boaz that naomi is brought in.
(Rev 14)

The gt has a purpose. But is not the basis of anything.
Gods purposes is the basis.

 

[Absolutely]

""That's how I left pre-trib. I could not find pre-trib in there, and I found plenty of scripture against it. I do not see where the Bible addresses pre-trib. It's hard to argue for something that Bible does not teach""

There are no postrib rapture verses.
....not a single one.

Nor did Jesus use any such dynamic.

In his examples nothing is a post Judgement deliverance.

 

[Absolutely]

I was talking about being prepared spiritually and also mentally and emotionally. Whether we go through 'the great tribulation' or not, we could all potentially go through tribulation. There are Christians in North Korea in prison right now for the faith.

I wonder if there will be people taking the mark of the beast who will justify it to themselves by saying, "This can't be the mark of the beast because the preacher said I would be raptured before that happened if I repeated a prayer after him, and I cannot lose my salvation if I repeated those words."

See,thats the thing.

I am to die now. At my rebirth.
Dying is basic doctrine.
I am to settle it now. Martyrdom is the highest honor. It is my win<>win.
They kill me...i go home...i am promoted.

Ironically martyrdom is the easy way out.

The foolish get the easy way,they were those that did not keep the fire burning.
They were lazy in worship and dedication,and diligence.

That is Gods goodness,that the foolish virgins get a higher reward.
You seem to key off of some "fairness" of heaven.

Remember one thing,heaven aint fair.

The parable of the workers.
Those working 30 minutes were paid the same as those working all day.

The foolish virgins are martyred and recieve a higher reward.