Not By Works

[posthuman]

The countless millions who have never crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires and, therefore, don't really belong to Christ.

how can i mortify my nature unless i am first given a second nature contrary to that which is crucified?
Romans 6 says i have been crucified with Him and therefore considering myself so, should not allow sin to reign in my mortal body.
it ain't the other way around, that i gain life by crucifying myself. i was dead when He called me: first He quickens me, and then, having been made alive, i am able to walk in Him.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Or fell away from God back to unbelief. Perhaps through the deceitfulness of sin they let fester in them:

Hebrews 3 NAS
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 10 NAS
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds



The first two probably did more than that. Putting money in the bank is the least one could do to bring increase to it. At least one Bible interpretation notes that:

Matthew 25:27 KJV
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Contemporary English Version
"You could have at least put my money in the bank, so I could have earned interest on it."

You see, you can put your money to work yourself and bring increase to it. In fact, all the increase is yours. Or you can give it to a bank who invests it in those who put it to work, and you receive a small fee from the bankers for doing so. So, as far as investing goes and bringing increase to what you have, giving it to a bank is the very least you can do with your treasure.

This can be likened to the believer who receives the word of God and gives it to others for them to bring increase to it. Meanwhile, he himself does nothing with it. That would the very least a person could do with the treasure of the word of God entrusted to them. The one talent guy didn't even do that! Evangelism is quite literally the very least you could do with the word of God you have received (sorry to burst your bubble, evangelical church). The greater thing you can do with the word of God is bring increase to it in your own life.

Faulty analogy.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction.

3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[iamsoandso]

It's a struggle where one is not quite sure if Jesus saved them on the Cross,and so one seeks to set the missing things in order to assure their own salvation because of doubt. To seek salvation is to deny the Cross and that salvation by works ,it is confessed by the inner man. A preacher who ask you if you've been saved yet denies the blood of the Cross and one who tell's you Jesus saved you and convinces you has spoken truth and given one the same gift he has received.

 

[posthuman]

Faulty analogy.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction.

3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

i find this very interesting:

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing.
(2 Timothy 4:8)
​

the crown of righteousness is to all who long for His appearing

so what constitutes longing for His appearing?

 

[Judges1318]

maybe because people falsely equate being emotionally manipulated into walking down an aisle and repeating some magic words with salvation?
salvation is a supernatural work of God, not a ritual a person is coerced into taking part in by persuasive oration & emotive music.

Note that in the parable of the unmerciful servant that even though the servant who was forgiven didn't really grasp that the debt he owed was being forgiven, he was very much forgiven the debt he owed. He begged for mercy and he received it even though he didn't get it that the debt was being removed altogether, not put off for him to repay in time.

Matthew 18:26-27,32 NAS
the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

So, we see that even if the understanding of the free gift may be skewed, the person still goes away forgiven. The problem is, that skewed understanding of the free gift may cause him to not act in accordance with the free gift and cause him to lose it later. That's where discipleship comes in after one's salvation experience.

What happens is, instead of the church telling believers what the behavioral expectations are for those who have received the free gift, we tell them their behavior doesn't matter in any way toward their forgiveness/salvation because 'once saved always saved'. But we see in the story about the kingdom that the slave lost the free gift because of his ignorance of the free gift he had in fact received.

 

[BillG]

I would hope this truth would bring 'Christians' who don't have works of righteousness in their lives, and who think they don't have to have them to be saved, to the end of themselves in utter frustration and hopelessness over their sin so they could truly receive God's gift of righteousness by faith and be changed. Instead, many of them simply double down all the harder on their assertion that they can still be saved even though they are living in the death that shows they are neither a son of God nor have the Spirit of God within them in salvation.

We need to be careful here.

Careful that we do not weigh down a believer concerning works of righteousness.
I say this because for someone to feel that they have to maintain a level of works to remain saved. The fact is that no level of works can save us.

I'm assuming by works you mean fruit.
We know Jesus said that some bear more than others.

Works do not save us, faith saves us and it is evidenced by our works and fruit.

With regards to the assertion you make that they can still be saved even though they are living in death. I assume you mean they think they can do what they want and still be saved?

If so we know Paul addressed this in Romans.

Shall we use the grace of God to sin more, so that we can receive more grace, or that it covers it? NO NO NO NO, grace is not a license to sin.

Now if we come across some like this then we need to remind/tell them what Paul said.

For me Grace is not an excuse to sin, but actually grace enables us to say no to sin and walk as the children of the Father. (Side note for those who accuse this ES guy of promoting a license to sin read my words and do not ever accuse me again)

Finally I would have to say if the people you describe above actually believe that and they have been corrected and still reject it and do not give two hoots then they are not Christians.

But let's find out first before coming to that conclusion.

 

[posthuman]

It's a struggle where one is not quite sure if Jesus saved them on the Cross,and so one seeks to set the missing things in order to assure their own salvation because of doubt. To seek salvation is to deny the Cross and that salvation by works ,it is confessed by the inner man. A preacher who ask you if you've been saved yet denies the blood of the Cross and one who tell's you Jesus saved you and convinces you has spoken truth and given one the same gift he has received.

yes, it shows doubt. when i was young i struggled greatly questioning whether i was really saved or not, because despite every effort of my will, i found myself falling short of Him. all this ceased one day when He showed me how by continually questioning this, i was continually casting doubt on His faithfulness to complete the work He began - that it was unbelief on my part. which is astounding!! how marvelous is this thing He does!

but the writer to the Hebrews encourages us to steadfastly hold onto our sure hope - in conjunction with considering how to spur one another to every good work. that isn't, make your hope sure by doing good works. that's, the hope is sure, therefore do. for He who calls us is faithful

 

[Judges1318]

so what constitutes longing for His appearing?

To hate sin and to no longer be of this world through faith in Christ?

 

[BillG]

maybe because this:



?

maybe because people falsely equate being emotionally manipulated into walking down an aisle and repeating some magic words with salvation?
salvation is a supernatural work of God, not a ritual a person is coerced into taking part in by persuasive oration & emotive music.

Why the ?

 

[iamsoandso]

yes, it shows doubt. when i was young i struggled greatly questioning whether i was really saved or not, because despite every effort of my will, i found myself falling short of Him. all this ceased one day when He showed me how by continually questioning this, i was continually casting doubt on His faithfulness to complete the work He began - that it was unbelief on my part. which is astounding!! how marvelous is this thing He does!

but the writer to the Hebrews encourages us to steadfastly hold onto our sure hope - in conjunction with considering how to spur one another to every good work. that isn't, make your hope sure by doing good works. that's, the hope is sure, therefore do. for He who calls us is faithful

Some say they were saved in their twenties others in their forties but they were not they were saved on the Cross before they were born just like all of us. Some deny it and others at some point in their life realize it(that he saved them on the Cross) and so it's not an issue of them being saved during their life,,,it's that at some point they stop denying it and believe that he saved them back then.

 

[BillG]

Then God does Not love the sinner with agape love, his love must be bought with our works

Not that it matters
John said a believer can not continue to live in sin so your point is mute no matter what

Sadly today people have no concept of Agape love.

Even Peter didn't

 

[posthuman]

But we see in the story about the kingdom that the slave lost the free gift because of his ignorance of the free gift he had in fact received.

this man thrown in jail until he paid back all of his debt, because he did not show the same mercy to others that he had been shown.
it is not that he was ignorant of having his own debt canceled - it is that this mercy never entered his heart to be reciprocally poured out to those who owed him debts of their own.
so is this a picture of God reneging His gift, or of mankind refusing to accept His gift?

Christ says this is how the Father will treat each of us if we do not forgive one another from the heart. if i have no mercy in my heart, have i received mercy and then changed my own heart to spew it back out again? or did i never truly receive mercy in my heart, but only the facsimile of it in my flesh?

interesting that this servant wasn't put to death, but into prison. in order to pay his debt, the sum must be collected from elsewhere

 

[posthuman]

Why the ?

because :? looks silly but i really wanted to use :

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

i find this very interesting:

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing. ​

(2 Timothy 4:8) ​

​

the crown of righteousness is to all who long for His appearing

so what constitutes longing for His appearing?

The living hope Mr. Z,... the living hope.

1 Peter 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11inquiring what person or timea the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

 

[posthuman]

To hate sin and to no longer be of this world through faith in Christ?

Peter says whoever has suffered in their flesh is done with sin.

is this the same?

 

[BillG]

because :? looks silly but i really wanted to use :

I must say. You are not as silly as you look

 

[posthuman]

The living hope Mr. Z,... the living hope.

1 Peter 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11inquiring what person or timea the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

"by God's power being guarded"

_______________♥

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

"by God's power being guarded"

_______________♥

1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,

John 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

♥ Love you bro

 

[Judges1318]

Faulty analogy.

It's not my analogy. It's Christ's.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction.

3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

How did you interpret what I said as 'don't do evangelism'?

I said evangelism is the least thing you can do to bring increase to the knowledge of the kingdom of God you have, because it results in increase in another person's life who puts it to work, not yours. But so many in the church are are sure evangelism is the greatest thing you can do with the knowledge of God. And, worse, they think doing that is the exemplary life of obedience to God of the Christian. No, putting the work of God to work in your own life is the exemplary life of obedience to God in salvation.

And "do the work of an evangelist" is not the Bible's command for all of us to have and perform in the gift of evangelism and to concentrate on that. I personally do not have that gift. I have other gifts--although I've done lots of witnessing (Philemon 1:6). Paul is speaking in a personal letter to Timothy who received his gift(s) through the laying on of hands by Paul and the elders (1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6). 'HE' has the gift of evangelism, not 'everybody' has the gift of evangelism. The person who has that gift and calling needs to discharge the duties of the office he has been given. If you have that gift then you should 'do the work of an evangelist'. The command is not to them that don't.

For those of us who don't have that gift we are to do the work of whatever it is that we have been gifted to do (see 1 Peter 4:10). And no matter what that gift is (which is given to you for the benefit of others), it in no way epitomizes the life of the believer as if it's the most important thing you can do for God. Your own personal growth in the knowledge of God is the most important thing you can do. But so many are sure their sacrifice of service is the greatest and most important thing that they are to do. No, it is your life of obedience in keeping God's commands that matters more. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Consider this warning from Jesus to those who think the sacrifice of their service to God and others is greater than their obedience to the commands of God in their own personal life:

Matthew 7:19-27 NAS
19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

They took false comfort in their works of service instead of the works of obedience that they should have had. And, yes, we know they had no works of obedience because God did not know them. The point is, Jesus is telling us what is more important. Works of service in the church won't save your 'house' from being destroyed when it comes time to enter into the kingdom. But so many in the church think those works will.

 

[mailmandan]

Or fell away from God back to unbelief. Perhaps through the deceitfulness of sin they let fester in them:

Hebrews 3 NAS
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

An unbelieving heart that falls away (not a believing heart) and although the letter of Hebrews is addressed to "brethren," this does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer.

*Once again, in Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not temporarily believed then later stopped believing.

Hebrews 10 NAS
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds

Not a word about losing salvation, but you are free to believe as you wish. Just don't end up on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security, the same roller coaster ride I was on prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. I find it interesting that those who relentlessly attack the OSAS doctrine are generally works-salvationists and ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly disagree with OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.

The first two probably did more than that. Putting money in the bank is the least one could do to bring increase to it. At least one Bible interpretation notes that:

Matthew 25:27 KJV
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Contemporary English Version
"You could have at least put my money in the bank, so I could have earned interest on it."

You see, you can put your money to work yourself and bring increase to it. In fact, all the increase is yours. Or you can give it to a bank who invests it in those who put it to work, and you receive a small fee from the bankers for doing so. So, as far as investing goes and bringing increase to what you have, giving it to a bank is the very least you can do with your treasure.

This can be likened to the believer who receives the word of God and gives it to others for them to bring increase to it. Meanwhile, he himself does nothing with it. That would the very least a person could do with the treasure of the word of God entrusted to them. The one talent guy didn't even do that! Evangelism is quite literally the very least you could do with the word of God you have received (sorry to burst your bubble, evangelical church). The greater thing you can do with the word of God is bring increase to it in your own life.

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

Also, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This wicked, lazy servant does not represent a genuine believer as it's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

*The Jews were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Isaiah 43:10 - "You are My witnesses, says the Lord," And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

*Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Yet God later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)