Not By Works

[Judges1318]

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation, as I previously explained in regards to 1 Corinthians 7:14.

But you're overlooking the fact that we know it is referring to a Christian because 'sanctified' is defined for us right in the chapter. In this case 'sanctified' is the person who has been made forever perfect by the offering of Christ:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14 KJV

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (perfected forever by that blood), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:28-29 KJV


All this being true, the writer exhorts these Christians sanctified in Christ to not throw away the perfection and the hope they have in Christ so that they can receive what is promised.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. - Hebrews 10:35-36 KJV

 

[Judges1318]

If the word "sanctified" is to be given a broad brushed definition of saved

'Sanctified' doesn't have a broad based definition of 'saved'. What it has is many uses and applications (nine, I think?).

And we know the one the writer of Hebrews is using. He himself defines it's application right in the text as being a person made forever perfect by the offering of Christ. That's a saved person, not an unsaved person declared clean for authorized, personal contact by believers.

Besides, the blood of Christ is not what declares unsaved relatives (or fellow church goers) safe for contact by saved people. In fact, we know that an unsaved fellow church goer habitually sinning is never declared clean (sanctified) for fellowship in the church, let alone by the blood of Christ. So we know that the writer is not defining 'sanctified' as the habitually sinning unsaved person who has been sanctified by the blood Christ and made fit for contact within the church by saved people. There is no such thing. That's not allowed.

 

[gb9]

Am curious as to why you don't think the Book of Enoch, or even the Book of Jasher aren't included in the Bible. They are both mentioned.

Pretty sad actually, how a group of men, some 1500 years ago dictates to you, what should, or shouldn't be read.
What's even sadder is you allowed 'em to do it!

Psalm 119:134
Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.

Jude quoted " the assumption of Moses" in his letter. ( about Michael and satan arguing over Moses after he died).

should that book be in Scripture?

and. as always, gentiles were and are not under the Law.

 

[Judges1318]

Once again, in verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

He's not writing doctrine by exhorting them that way.

Have you ever played little league or some other team sport? You win the championship one year, and the next year the coach is telling you to get out there and win because you're not losers, you're winners.

Likewise, for us in Christ. We have been born again. We're winners. Winners aren't losers. Winners don't shrink back into unbelief. So get out there and be the champs you really are! Continue in what you are!

 

[Judges1318]

pray for Finland. until now we always had people come sing christmas songs in hospitals and christmas celebrations in schools with songs about Jesus and also when i was in cshool we went to church as well that went away shortly after me but then now not even hymns can be sung.

just to cater to you know who they do this. no backbone

I may be wrong, but the signs of the times tell me this isn't the time to pray for nations to submit to Christ. That time is over. The time now is to pray for people within the nations of the world to be saved from the inevitable fall of this planet into the hands of the coming socialist anti-christ. The stage is being set now. I think we're very, very close.

Pray to get people off the sinking ship, not for God to save the ship. The ship is doomed and sinking fast. And that's exactly how Christ said it will be. Prayers won't change what he said will, and must, come to pass. But our prayers can and will get those people saved who can be saved.

 

[Chris1975]

NKJV says it slightly differently: 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

But the bottom line is Hebrews 3v12-14 says it as clear as daylight. Anybody twisting this does so at their own peril.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Part 1

>He addresses them as brethren (in the church, not addressing unbelievers).
>You are only in the Church if you have confessed Christ.
>I say it again, he is addressing those who have confessed Christ.

Part2

>These addressed by Paul are warned not to depart from the living God
>this means they were with God.
>this means that departing from God is something that not only is possible, but something that the believer can choose to do.
>Believers are encourgaged to exhort one another so that they do not fall into this trap.

Part3
> how does one depart from God? Well the passage explains it. UNBELIEF
>What leads to unbelief ---- lack of faith
>what is the leading cause of unbelief? Unaddressed sin. It hardens the heart and leads the believer away from faithfulness.

Part4
> the verse "14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end," is in direct contradiction to so many here who say we have become partakers of Christ in FINALITY when we first believed.
>this verse says its the FULL JOURNEY. Starts at belief, but CONTINUES until the end.
>Those who fall away during the journey are not saved.
>OSAS doesn't exist.

 

[Melach]

im not roman catholic at all but i love this song

i love all that templar crusader things. yes i know i know no lectures please. i just like the song its motivating. everytime i hear these and watch documentaries about it i think wow how low has the catholics fallen? now they are just lapdogs compared to past you wouldnt wanna mess with the roman catholic church. for sure you will be in trouble then.

i have a question included in this message: does anyone know like you are catholic @morefaithrequired did they used to have different doctrines but then after reformation they went super far with their false teaching just to make even more distinction? were they any better in lets say 600s or 800s? does anyone know?

 

[Discern]

If that were true, Hebrews 3:14 would read like this:

We hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, if we are made partakers of Christ. (incorrect paraphrase)

And that is how once saved always saved incorrectly sees it. But as it is, it actually reads like this:

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" - KJV

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

Hebrews 3:12-19 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

I never switched the protasis and apodosis. But your interpretation seems to make it "we will be partakers with Christ, if we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end." The verb "made partakers" is perfect tense, not future tense. The ones who hold fast their confidence to the end are the ones who HAVE BEEN made partakers with Christ.

 

[gb9]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Part 1

>He addresses them as brethren (in the church, not addressing unbelievers).
>You are only in the Church if you have confessed Christ.
>I say it again, he is addressing those who have confessed Christ.

Part2

>These addressed by Paul are warned not to depart from the living God
>this means they were with God.
>this means that departing from God is something that not only is possible, but something that the believer can choose to do.
>Believers are encourgaged to exhort one another so that they do not fall into this trap.

Part3
> how does one depart from God? Well the passage explains it. UNBELIEF
>What leads to unbelief ---- lack of faith
>what is the leading cause of unbelief? Unaddressed sin. It hardens the heart and leads the believer away from faithfulness.

Part4
> the verse "14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end," is in direct contradiction to so many here who say we have become partakers of Christ in FINALITY when we first believed.
>this verse says its the FULL JOURNEY. Starts at belief, but CONTINUES until the end.
>Those who fall away during the journey are not saved.
>OSAS doesn't exist.

* except, we all sin, including you.

we all have unaddressed sin, hence our need to confess them.

I am not osas, I agree with you that we are saved by belief, but the truth is, the only thing that will condemn one to hell is not believing and having faith in Jesus.

sinless perfectionism is just as much of a lie as osas.

 

[Melach]

I may be wrong, but the signs of the times tell me this isn't the time to pray for nations to submit to Christ. That time is over. The time now is to pray for people within the nations of the world to be saved from the inevitable fall of this planet into the hands of the coming socialist anti-christ. The stage is being set now. I think we're very, very close.

Pray to get people off the sinking ship, not for God to save the ship. The ship is doomed and sinking fast. And that's exactly how Christ said it will be. Prayers won't change what he said will, and must, come to pass. But our prayers can and will get those people saved who can be saved.

i agree with you that it looks like lost cause. but i also dont want to give up. its really mixed feelings i haev about it

on one hand im hoping for things to turn around fast and get a gospel state going in europe again.
on other hand i know this is times of apostasy like never before and most likely its not gonna get better but worse and worse as bible says

there is one danger in being too pessimist though. because think about this: if you were in 1500s alive and you see roman catholics with indulgences and all that. you think wow its all over no one in true faith. thats how luther could of think too just say "its end times i cant do anything" but he did do something and turned the ship around and new golden era came from that from 1500s to 1800s. reformation swept over europe.

could be that God is looking for a man today but cant find one?

 

[EleventhHour]

If that were true, Hebrews 3:14 would read like this:

We hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, if we are made partakers of Christ. (incorrect paraphrase)

And that is how once saved always saved incorrectly sees it. But as it is, it actually reads like this:

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" - KJV

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

Hebrews 3:12-19 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

I really matters not that you do not respond to me.......but for the benefit of others I will respond.

You are absolutely incorrect and please admit your understanding of a European foreign languages is extremely limited, it is not only about verb tenses, but how they expressed themselves.

The verse refers to the possession of salvation by the believer, a salvation which is in Christ.

The perfect tense in Greek speaks of an action that was completed in past time, having present results. The translation reads, therefore, “For we became partakers of Messiah with the present result that we are partakers of Him.”

Our union with Christ cannot be broken... therefore hold fast to that confidence to the end ..... an exhortation to be strong in the faith because faith not only brings secure salvation but brings everything that Jesus has to offer us in this life... to the end of our lives!

Hebrews is all about how secure we are in Christ... please stop promoting lies against Jesus and our unshakable union with Him

 

[Judges1318]

The context does not change the fact that ..we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10) The perfect tense speaks of a past completed action (which took place at the moment of our salvation) with permanent or lasting effect (we are forever set apart in Christ). The believer's position in Christ is forever secure. Those who abandon their hope were never firmly rooted and established in their hope to begin with.

The context also does not change the fact that the perfect tense in Hebrews 10:14 speaks of the permanence of this perfection. Believers are forever "perfect" in Christ (our position). Hebrews 10:14 - For by a one offering/single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

You show me where in Hebrews where 'forever perfected' means you can't forfeit that perfection, and I will show you where 'forever perfected' means the perfection you receive through Christ (as opposed to the Levites) does not have to be repeated over and over again.

See, you're reading your once saved always saved bias into 'forever perfected' instead of learning from the actual context it's in what it means. And you're doing the same thing with the 'they never really believed' thing, also. Jesus himself said the 2nd type of soil 'believed'. The seed was growing there. It wasn't 'not really' growing there. That's a bias that you have added to the parable. And probably because you have an incorrect and impossible understanding of 1 John 2:19 given to you by once saved always saved doctrine, which can't mean what it says it means because three New Testament churches 'left', but which are clearly said to have been real, believing people.

 

[EleventhHour]

I never switched the protasis and apodosis. But your interpretation seems to make it "we will be partakers with Christ, if we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end." The verb "made partakers" is perfect tense, not future tense. The ones who hold fast their confidence to the end are the ones who HAVE BEEN made partakers with Christ.

Exactly!!

 

[Judges1318]

i agree with you that it looks like lost cause. but i also dont want to give up. its really mixed feelings i haev about it

on one hand im hoping for things to turn around fast and get a gospel state going in europe again.
on other hand i know this is times of apostasy like never before and most likely its not gonna get better but worse and worse as bible says

there is one danger in being too pessimist though. because think about this: if you were in 1500s alive and you see roman catholics with indulgences and all that. you think wow its all over no one in true faith. thats how luther could of think too just say "its end times i cant do anything" but he did do something and turned the ship around and new golden era came from that from 1500s to 1800s. reformation swept over europe.

could be that God is looking for a man today but cant find one?

That's an excellent reply.
I think Israel being back in their land and thriving again is one difference between then and now. And the global scope of the corruption and reach of socialism (the beast with the fatal wound who lives again?) make it different this time.
But your thoughts are valuable and to be considered.

 

[Discern]

If that were true, Hebrews 3:14 would read like this:

We hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, if we are made partakers of Christ. (incorrect paraphrase)

And that is how once saved always saved incorrectly sees it. But as it is, it actually reads like this:

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" - KJV

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

Hebrews 3:12-19 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Please read Hebrews 4:1-3 which is part of the context of what the writer is talking about in Hebrews 3

He says that the rebellious Hebrews that were not allowed to enter the land did not enter rest because of unbelief, because the gospel was preached to them, but not mixed with faith. Then he says "we who have believed (perfect tense again) do enter into rest"

The writer of Hebrews is using the example of the unbelieving Israelites to drive home his point.

 

[Melach]

That's an excellent reply.
I think Israel being back in their land and thriving again is one difference between then and now. And the global scope of the corruption and reach of socialism (the beast with the fatal wound who lives again?) make it different this time.
But your thoughts are valuable and to be considered.

thanks. i agree that now its much more serious because think about this: atleast roman catholics while i believe in error, were serious about their error you know.

now even the error is being apostasized from. its actually crazy. like even heresies arent kept to properly anymore. all ships are leaking. you see in england for example even lesbian muslim imams, who could of imagined them watering down so much from being so strict?

even here in finland mormons who always belief they are one true church only, are now accepting ecumenical movement and joining with rest of "christians" and they are accepting them even if they believe in many gods and other errors.

its just no one seems to be right in anything, truth or error. i find it so odd i sometimes feel i have depersonalization disorder, like im spectator in my own life am i the only one here? i think its scary to be living in this time.

its like secular culture is just so powerful it corrupts everything. because it promotes plesaures of the flesh.

 

[Judges1318]

Amen! Unbelievers/nominal Christians will say Lord, Lord, didn't WE.. but believers/genuine Christians will say, Lord, Lord, didn't YOU..

Yes, the unrighteous will make their plea of having an association with Christ, but correct me if I'm wrong, I think what is actually going to happen is Christ is going to say, 'you did this...' to the righteous, and 'you did not do this...' to the unrighteous. And he's going to be very specific about what you did or did not do.

 

[EleventhHour]

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart” (Hebrews 12:1-3).


Shame, that some lie about our Lord and Saviour and His work.... very sad face!!

 

[Discern]

Yes, the unrighteous will make their plea of having an association with Christ, but correct me if I'm wrong, I think what is actually going to happen is Christ is going to say, 'you did this...' to the righteous, and 'you did not do this...' to the unrighteous. And he's going to be very specific about what you did or did not do.

That is true. See Parable of the sheep and the goats. Sheep love other sheep. Goats are every man for himself (and his own). But the good works were not what saved the sheep. They were the result of the fact that they were sheep.

We will not be saved or lost based on how many works we did, but our works will be judged as indicative of who we are.

 

[Chris1975]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Part 1

>He addresses them as brethren (in the church, not addressing unbelievers).
>You are only in the Church if you have confessed Christ.
>I say it again, he is addressing those who have confessed Christ.

Part2

>These addressed by Paul are warned not to depart from the living God
>this means they were with God.
>this means that departing from God is something that not only is possible, but something that the believer can choose to do.
>Believers are encourgaged to exhort one another so that they do not fall into this trap.

Part3
> how does one depart from God? Well the passage explains it. UNBELIEF
>What leads to unbelief ---- lack of faith
>what is the leading cause of unbelief? Unaddressed sin. It hardens the heart and leads the believer away from faithfulness.

Part4
> the verse "14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end," is in direct contradiction to so many here who say we have become partakers of Christ in FINALITY when we first believed.
>this verse says its the FULL JOURNEY. Starts at belief, but CONTINUES until the end.
>Those who fall away during the journey are not saved.
>OSAS doesn't exist.

A corollary of this can be seen in Marriage.

>A man and woman meet and begin to court.
>They fall head over heels in love and get married
>The honeymoon is great, nothing could be better. The world to them is perfect, and nobody could ever replace them.
>After a few years, the husband is called for his draft (he is a military man). And off he gets posted to a foreign country for a couple of years.
>In the first few monts of being apart, they write letters regularly to one another. Missing each other. Writing that they cant wait to be in each others arms again.
>More time passes. She thinks of her husband slightly less everyday. But she comforts herself that everything is still going well.
>She notices another man who looks at her in a certain way. Passing glances, the odd flirtation, the casual chat encounter.
>they start spending more time together, looking for opportunities to bump into each other.
>after a number of months they go on their first date together (although she would NOT call this a date). How can it be. They are just "friends".
>This becomes a more regular encounter, until one day it goes past what a healthy engagement should really be. Her heart falls for this new man.
>She hasnt seen her husband in a while. The letters excahnged are few and far between. She begins to justify in her heart that she has the right to be happy. Perhaps her husband doesnt love her so much anymore. She has the RIGHT to be happy. The RIGHT to companionship which her husband is not providing. And hey, she is not getting any younger.
>So this woman begins the affair with the new man. Her heart is now split between two men. And the more time that goes by the easier this becomes on her conscience. What was a nagging feeling of unease becomes easier and easier to deal with. Whats done is done she reasons.
>Her husband returns from the draft, but he finds that his wife is not the same woman he left. The light and sparkle in her eyes went out. She doesn't look at him in the same way as before.
>He can't quite put his finger on it. But shortly thereafter he finds out through the rumour mill that his wife hasd been having an affair for a few years.
>He confronts her with this. At first she denies, but when she is shown the evidence that he has, she finally admits it.
>Her husband still loves her, and says that he will forgive her, if she will repent of her deeds and come back to him and agree to stop seeing the other man.
>Yet she in her heart has fallen for the other man, and is not willing to give up on the other man. He makes her feel better than her husband does.
>Her unwillingness to change leads her husband to seek a divorce.

In the above parable, the Husband is God, the Wife the Believer, and the Other Man is Sin.