Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (IOW, don't leave). If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
If they were real believers and can't be seduced and fall away because they are real believers, as John says they were, then why did he have to tell them to not be seduced into falling away and that they should continue in what they heard in the beginning? That shows us that, obviously, vs. 19 doesn't mean what once saved always saved says it means.
There's something peculiar to that group of people that left that indicates 'they were not of us'. It's not a blanket statement of doctrine that anyone who leaves was never really saved. I think the leaving in this particular case that prompted John's judgment that they were never really of us probably had something to do with the flawed foundation of Gnostic beliefs as to who Christ was that these particular people's belief was built on and it prevented them from being really saved by the real gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus they were never 'of us' and, therefore, did not continue with us.
Then that means the Galatians were "never of us". But that can't be because the letter shows us the Galatians really were saved, yet they fell away from believing in Christ for justification and went back to the keeping of 'days, and months, and times, and years' for justification.
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh (justified by the works of the law, as opposed by faith-see Hebrews 7:11,10:1,14)? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:3, 4:9-11, 5:4 KJV
They believed in Christ and were saved. God knew them, and they had even received the Holy Spirit, yet they fell away from the gospel of Christ they heard in the beginning. That means 1 John 2:19 must not mean what once saved always saved says it means.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
If they were real believers and can't be seduced and fall away because they are real believers, as John says they were, then why did he have to tell them to not be seduced into falling away and that they should continue in what they heard in the beginning? That shows us that, obviously, vs. 19 doesn't mean what once saved always saved says it means.
There's something peculiar to that group of people that left that indicates 'they were not of us'. It's not a blanket statement of doctrine that anyone who leaves was never really saved. I think the leaving in this particular case that prompted John's judgment that they were never really of us probably had something to do with the flawed foundation of Gnostic beliefs as to who Christ was that these particular people's belief was built on and it prevented them from being really saved by the real gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus they were never 'of us' and, therefore, did not continue with us.
Then that means the Galatians were "never of us". But that can't be because the letter shows us the Galatians really were saved, yet they fell away from believing in Christ for justification and went back to the keeping of 'days, and months, and times, and years' for justification.
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh (justified by the works of the law, as opposed by faith-see Hebrews 7:11,10:1,14)? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:3, 4:9-11, 5:4 KJV
They believed in Christ and were saved. God knew them, and they had even received the Holy Spirit, yet they fell away from the gospel of Christ they heard in the beginning. That means 1 John 2:19 must not mean what once saved always saved says it means.
False accusations against @eternally-gratefull proves who really leads you......God is not the one leading you pal!
-
2
-
1
- Show all
By the theory of OSAS, what a person can do is come to the Lord in Faith, get saved (done deal, cant lose it), and THEREAFTER strive by works to earn the favour of God. "Oh no" say the OSAS crowd - "you cant obtain salvation by works." To which I could reply "But then, it matters not, because I couldn't lose my salvation because I am already eternally saved when I first put my trust in Jesus."
See the fallacy in your logic.
Hence why Paul warned the Galatians:
Galatians 3
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed [b]among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
> No doubt that these started in the Spirit (v3)
>No doubt that these were believers (v3)
>He then warns them about trying to be made perfect in the flesh (v3)
>The question is this: WHY BOTHER WARNING THEM IF OSAS IS TRUE? If they cannot lose their salvation then the warning is pretty much irrelevant.
See the fallacy in your logic.
Hence why Paul warned the Galatians:
Galatians 3
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed [b]among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
> No doubt that these started in the Spirit (v3)
>No doubt that these were believers (v3)
>He then warns them about trying to be made perfect in the flesh (v3)
>The question is this: WHY BOTHER WARNING THEM IF OSAS IS TRUE? If they cannot lose their salvation then the warning is pretty much irrelevant.
-
1
- Show all
In fact I never want to hear another WARNING from an OSASSER about being a works salvationist, because I personally believe that Jesus died for my sin, and paid the price that I could not (see I am a believer). Now, never warn me about works or the danger about losing my salvation through works (because by your own theology I am secure, even though according to you I may be deceived) 
-
1
- Show all
What was I thinking? I thought we were supposed to hunger and thirst for righteousness sake. Yes?
Seems there are some in here that have "reached their quota" of righteousness. So no longer hunger any longer.
Settling for "milk", and ignore the "meat and taters!" Milk is good for babes. Not so good for supposedly long time believers. Comes a time when that "line" is crossed, from "innocent", to "willfully ignorant!"
And it SHOWS! Spiritually speaking, that is!
Seems there are some in here that have "reached their quota" of righteousness. So no longer hunger any longer.
Settling for "milk", and ignore the "meat and taters!" Milk is good for babes. Not so good for supposedly long time believers. Comes a time when that "line" is crossed, from "innocent", to "willfully ignorant!"
And it SHOWS! Spiritually speaking, that is!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Lets look at the three verses that OSASSERS have been ignoring the whole day, as posted by Turtle.
James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save [l]a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
>a brother wandering from the truth
>turning back
>save a SOUL from death
1 Timothy 4
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
>Continue in them (pretty much destroys EG and DCON heresies right there)
>save (salvation). As a result of.......yes....Continuation.
Luke 8
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away.
>ahhh yes - they BELIEVE for a while. I suspect the OSASSERS will say they never really believed, contradicting what the bible says.
>fall away in time of temptation (I thought OSASSERS said you cannot fall away?)
>OSSASERS are really stuck with this one. If they say these weren't believers then the say the bible lies. If they say they are believers, then this doctrine of them falling away breaks their paradigm. Hmmm.
James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save [l]a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
>a brother wandering from the truth
>turning back
>save a SOUL from death
1 Timothy 4
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
>Continue in them (pretty much destroys EG and DCON heresies right there)
>save (salvation). As a result of.......yes....Continuation.
Luke 8
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away.
>ahhh yes - they BELIEVE for a while. I suspect the OSASSERS will say they never really believed, contradicting what the bible says.
>fall away in time of temptation (I thought OSASSERS said you cannot fall away?)
>OSSASERS are really stuck with this one. If they say these weren't believers then the say the bible lies. If they say they are believers, then this doctrine of them falling away breaks their paradigm. Hmmm.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
E
Boy, this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.... same ole, same ole ..licence to sin argument.
As I have told many who argue this ... this is distorted reasoning.... taking the truth of God's word of..... salvation by faith alone, by grace alone... and arguing let us do evil so that good my came...and Paul quite clearly states that this comes from a heart of unbelief... he was slandered the same way.
Our deeds never determined our destiny and to preach grace is not to sanction sin but to settle one's trust in the Saviour.
Your argument it that last very, very, desperate, final attempt for you to prove self-worthy, do you realize this I wonder??????
We acknowledge sin for what it is and we preach that the only solution for sin is to trust in the Saviour...... you and all your NOSAS friends preach trust yourself... this is not the Gospel... end of story!!!!
And read this carefully.. you slander grace...... God does not take that lightly.
King James Bible
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
As I have told many who argue this ... this is distorted reasoning.... taking the truth of God's word of..... salvation by faith alone, by grace alone... and arguing let us do evil so that good my came...and Paul quite clearly states that this comes from a heart of unbelief... he was slandered the same way.
Our deeds never determined our destiny and to preach grace is not to sanction sin but to settle one's trust in the Saviour.
Your argument it that last very, very, desperate, final attempt for you to prove self-worthy, do you realize this I wonder??????
We acknowledge sin for what it is and we preach that the only solution for sin is to trust in the Saviour...... you and all your NOSAS friends preach trust yourself... this is not the Gospel... end of story!!!!
And read this carefully.. you slander grace...... God does not take that lightly.
King James Bible
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
-
1
- Show all
E
King James Bible
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
-
1
- Show all