Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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All of Scripture does not have to harmonize. Scripture must be rightly divided. There are divisions to be made as to not contradict especially Church age doctrine from Israel’s doctrine.
Feel free to elaborate further on your hyper dispensational view. I’m curious to see where you and those who teach NOSAS line up.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Feel free to elaborate further on your hyper dispensational view. I’m curious to see where you and those who teach NOSAS line up.
I’m not a hyper, I believe we should study and reap application from all Scripture. But Church age doctrine is contained primarily in Paul’s epistles. I believe Christ came, not only to die on the cross for sin (which was in mystery form until after), but He came to fulfill the covenant with Israel and their kingdom. Since Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah, the kingdom was postponed and the gospel of grace has been given to the Gentile world. The book of Acts records this transition.

This doctrine of grace and how to live holy in that grace is primarily found in Paul’s writings including regulations for the church, pastors, deacons, et...We find the catching up of the Church in Paul’s epistles and the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Hebrews transitions God’s plan back to the nation of Israel in the last days and James gives doctrine to those living in the tribulation, thus the NT books are in chronology in how events will play out, not when the books were actually written.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Thank you for your response.
I wasn't referring to the Catholic doctrine of "mortal and venial sin"

Sound doctrine can only be found in Scripture, not religious commentaries.

Allow me to clarify: Scripture lists many sins which "ALL/EVERYONE" who practices those will NOT inherit the kingdom or have eternal life. It is dangerous to teach gullible young believers that you just have to "believe" and then it's ok to go on sinning. Stumbling and continuous enmity with sin is part of the Christian walk, however it should no longer be a lifestyle of choice, and we should certainly not be complacent in it. Repentance is not a mere mental thought, it is a physical turning around, moving away from sin.

Let's look only at what the Bible says?
John 5:1-15, 8:11 - Jesus said: "Go and sin no more"
1 John 5:16-17 - There is "sin that leads to death"
Matthew 12:31 - Unforgivable sin
Mark 9:47 - If your eye causes you to sin, tear it out..... It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye that with two eyes to be thrown into hell.
Ephesians 5:5 - Everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, covetous, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 - The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom (sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, greedy, drunkards, verbal abusers, swindlers, etc.)
Rev 21:8 - The cowardly, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will be in the lake of fire, the second death
Galatians 5:19-21 - works of the flesh are listed (those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God)
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father

Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (15) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Only those who preach against grace as completely sufficient are the one who redefine belief so that works need to be added to support salvation.

... from a cultural historical context "belief" was never understood as mental assent and spurious faith does not exist in scripture.... that is a modern day twist and lack of understanding of the word and understanding of "belief" and what it meant from a historical perspective ... belief being found in scripture is the seat (connection of heart and mind) of man.

Well basically 1 Cor 6:9-10 and the rest is telling us no one is gets in because we are all those things... therefore Jesus who imputes his righteousness to us gives us entrance.

When you grasp this you will understand scripture better..... we are not being sanctified for entrance, for eternal life... that is already a done deal to those who believe ......in the biblical application of the word.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I believe, you and many other people have been "led down the primrose lane" (should believe a lie), concerning this whole "concept of rapture, or of being seized, or snatched away (from the earth/world)", as well as how "into the air", is translated, or more precisely "mistranslated."

Let's start out with "into the air" first.
There are very many instances in the Bible, both O.T., and N.T., in "the explaining of things spiritual", when "human language/s" no matter when they were written, during the passing of years, decades, centuries, millennia, just haven't the capability of rendering correctly, "Spiritual Happenings!"

This is "by consequential design!" Ever since "the fall of Adam." When God's Spirit, would no longer "strive" with "man's spirit", when there "really" was NO NEED at all in the PRESERVING OF! As God's Spirit was "with" man's spirit! And, there really was not the "division, by means of apostasy, or falling away", against flesh FROM Spirit.

A more PRECISE "rendering" of "in the air", in this case, would be "in/with the spirit AND MIND of man!" And, NOT the "contextual literalistic" interpretation, of "in the clouds" "in the air!"

Now, this "snatching" or "seizing?" Would not be like when someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior. But, more like Jesus' "thief in the night" analogy of "rapture!" Inasmuch as one is in no wise EXPECTING IT!
Or? More precisely, not "ready" or prepared for the "how", let alone the "when!"
Kinda like: "I had NO IDEA, it was gonna happen "like THAT!" (UTTER BEWILDERMENT)


Isaiah 28
18 And (WHEN) your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and (WHEN) your agreement with hell shall not stand; when ((HOW) the overflowing scourge (WHAT) shall pass through, then (HOW) ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. (UTTER BEWILDERMENT)
20 (When THIS "realization" HITS ya) For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. (to EVERYONE....in "their" season!)

This is more like what "rapture" be "like":
Revelation 20

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You are free to believe what you want.

Most of US, do believe the Bible is speaking LITERALLY, especially these verses:


1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NASB)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and
so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matthew 25:6 (ESV)
6 But at midnight there was a cry, Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’


Revelation 19:7-9 (NASB)
7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me,
"These are true words of God."


All your post tells me, is YOU DID NOT GET THE INVITE, that has been written in your heart (human spirit).

Every single event of JEWISH Man choosing His Bride, was fulfilled BY CHRIST before He ascended, and the WEDDING CEREMONY is yet to come. He fulfilled every event, including the Mandatory, "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU." I am fully confident, HE will fulfill the REST of the WEDDING OF THE LAMB, according to JEWISH TRADITIONS.

I do not like calling it the RAPTURE, because of how false prophets have perverted the meaning of the word Rapture, Raptus in LATIN.

I mean false prophets like Kenneth Copeland, and Harold Camping, etc. Therefore I choose to call it The Calling Out of the Bride.

Almost every single Evangelical Born Again Believer are genuinely believing in the Calling Out of the Bride,

Most of the Baptists are also believing in the Calling Out of the Bride,

An overwhelming part of the Pentecostals and Charismatics also do believe in the Calling Out of the Bride,

And a few other denominations also Believe in it.


I am a Conservative Evangelical type of Christian, and we believe in KEEPING READY FOR HIM.

SO WHAT ARE YOU ? ? ?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I encourage you to study Numbers 15 and the rest of Scripture on this matter.
There exist a clear delineation between presumptuous sin and sin committed in ignorance.
I already know this... and the reference to "willful sin" in Hebrews relates to this exactly ..willful sin are sins not covered by the sacrifices in the temple.

There was no sacrifice for willful sin in the old system.

This is NO way means that salvation is lost because of willful sin ...makes not sense at all in context of the fact that ALL sins have been atoned for at the cross.

The new covenant being much better than the old is the entire theme of Hebrews .... not one line in Hebrews teaches loss of salvation.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
You are free to believe what you want.

The ultimate tragedy ... I tire @VCO I can barely read these posts anymore ... are there only a handful people here who know the Gospel ... almost every newcomer preaches a covert works Gospel.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The simplicity of Christ’s saving grace is misunderstood by some folks to the point that it’s actually disturbing and heartbreaking.
Agree...harping on "sin" like the cross never happened and grace is not sufficient to save....... how much more blasphemous can one be.

For me right now there are not enough adjectives in the world to negatively describe what it is they preach :(:(:(
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
On a side note.....

A gunman entered a Texas church today (Sunday, Dec. 29, 2019) with a firearm (some reports say a shotgun, others say a rifle) intent on mass murder.
He fired two rounds that killed one or maybe two (reports vary) and seriously injured another. But before he could fire a third round, he was taken out by an armed church member. The would-be mass shooter was dead in 6 seconds.
Enough said.


from my FB feed.. C. Baldwin
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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He answered that question. As for me. A believer would have to do a lot of study to learn what every possible sin he could ever commit. So I doubt it’s even possible. As for sins he knows. That should already have taken place
Why are we implored to do this below?
On a side note.....

A gunman entered a Texas church today (Sunday, Dec. 29, 2019) with a firearm (some reports say a shotgun, others say a rifle) intent on mass murder.
He fired two rounds that killed one or maybe two (reports vary) and seriously injured another. But before he could fire a third round, he was taken out by an armed church member. The would-be mass shooter was dead in 6 seconds.
Enough said.


from my FB feed.. C. Baldwin
He made a major mistake in Red above.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
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I’m not a hyper, I believe we should study and reap application from all Scripture. But Church age doctrine is contained primarily in Paul’s epistles. I believe Christ came, not only to die on the cross for sin (which was in mystery form until after), but He came to fulfill the covenant with Israel and their kingdom. Since Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah, the kingdom was postponed and the gospel of grace has been given to the Gentile world. The book of Acts records this transition.

This doctrine of grace and how to live holy in that grace is primarily found in Paul’s writings including regulations for the church, pastors, deacons, et...We find the catching up of the Church in Paul’s epistles and the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Hebrews transitions God’s plan back to the nation of Israel in the last days and James gives doctrine to those living in the tribulation, thus the NT books are in chronology in how events will play out, not when the books were actually written.
I understand what you’re saying here, but how does rightly dividing the word of truth have nothing to do with properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture according to you? Also, what is your view on the scriptures that have been discussed in regards to OSAS vs. NOSAS?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
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I understand what you’re saying here, but how does rightly dividing the word of truth have nothing to do with properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture according to you? Also, what is your view on the scriptures that have been discussed in regards to OSAS vs. NOSAS?
OSAS! Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. When you make Hebrews and James Church doctrine, you run into all kinds of issues like works salvation, losing salvation, etc. So, in order to make them fit Church doctrine, one has to insert their own interpretation into the scriptures through sly reasoning.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Sadly, I've seen this reasoning pop up only when this doctrine is challenged by Scripture. Teaching "eternal security" without the complete message is irresponsible. The dangerous risk is that it confuses new believers into complacency. I used to be one of those deceived. Praise God for opening my eyes to the truth of His pure Word in context, instead of single verses to confirm an incomplete man-made bias.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
(1 John 2:3-6)
I think you have been deceived..... OSAS is the only position from which a person freely serves God.... the dangerous risk is absolutely and only on the side of those who preach against the complete and irrevocable salvation because they contradict Truth.


New King James Version
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 4:4
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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I am a "grace-guy", but even I can see the dangerous possibility of some being lulled and deceived into thinking that the Atonement amounts to a free lifetime supply of RC indulgences. We must remember that it is by their fruits ye shall know them. Perhaps we get the concepts of fruits and works all mish-mash-mangled together?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I am a "grace-guy", but even I can see the dangerous possibility of some being lulled and deceived into thinking that the Atonement amounts to a free lifetime supply of RC indulgences. We must remember that it is by their fruits ye shall know them. Perhaps we get the concepts of fruits and works all mish-mash-mangled together?

The Atonement is complete ... sin has been dealt with .... you either accept this or you do not.... but there is only one truth and Jesus made it clear... Paid in Full!!!

And what are fruits exactly by which we will know them?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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The Atonement is complete ... sin has been dealt with .... you either accept this or you do not.... but there is only one truth and Jesus made it clear... Paid in Full!!!

And what are fruits exactly by which we will know them?
Galations 5
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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Galations 5
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Very clear.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Galations 5
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Yup, and Jesus has all those covered. AMEN!!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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OSAS! Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. When you make Hebrews and James Church doctrine, you run into all kinds of issues like works salvation, losing salvation, etc. So, in order to make them fit Church doctrine, one has to insert their own interpretation into the scriptures through sly reasoning
Amen about sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption! (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) So what about Hebrews and James according to your view in regards to OSAS?